I can't imagine you will have been too busy indulging in these Vatican sacraments to post on TOL.
Stuart
Gay Orgy at Vatican
- Thread starter CherubRam
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Stuart
jsanford108
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Gay Orgy at Vatican
Gr8 b8, m8.
You ask where the Catholics are, here I am. I was not drawn by your silly post, but the comment on Calvinism. However, I will entertain the thread, just to try and educate.
Let us begin. What is this source quote from?
Second, have you ever researched Protestant sex scandals? GRACE, a group started by the Graham foundation, researches such statistics. And their results should be more alarming that a bunch of gays having an orgy.
Even better sources are secular. Especially since they are unbiased to denominations. And those statistics are quite challenging to your charges and claims.
Recently I posted such statistics in another thread. I never heard back from the instigator. Guess those facts, when brought to light, are much too damning to such falsehoods, akin to the ones you insist on spreading.
So let us get this going. Which is probably what those cardinals said.
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Gr8 b8, m8.
You ask where the Catholics are, here I am. I was not drawn by your silly post, but the comment on Calvinism. However, I will entertain the thread, just to try and educate.
Let us begin. What is this source quote from?
Second, have you ever researched Protestant sex scandals? GRACE, a group started by the Graham foundation, researches such statistics. And their results should be more alarming that a bunch of gays having an orgy.
Even better sources are secular. Especially since they are unbiased to denominations. And those statistics are quite challenging to your charges and claims.
Recently I posted such statistics in another thread. I never heard back from the instigator. Guess those facts, when brought to light, are much too damning to such falsehoods, akin to the ones you insist on spreading.
So let us get this going. Which is probably what those cardinals said.
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Last edited:
CherubRam
New member
We are not talking about an incident, we are talking about ongoing criminal behavior. We are talking about millions who have died, been tortured, or raped.
jsanford108
New member
Then your post should reflect that. Rather than post about "gay orgies," indicating conversation about sex scandal and deviance, you should allude to corruption, the inquisition, etc.
Either way, I have all kinds of facts and statistics, or as reality labels them, truths.
CherubRam
New member
It is my thread, so I added to it.
jsanford108
New member
Well, you can't say a post is about one thing, but when questioned say it about another. That is called "dishonesty." But I digress. Let us proceed.
So which topic do you want to address first? You pick, and I shall address it.
CherubRam
New member
Why do the Catholic people support the Vatican with its on going criminal history?
jsanford108
New member
To say that there is a criminal history is kind of obvious. Especially since it has been around for 2000 years. The people are just that, people. They are not sinless.
We Catholics still accept Church authority, given to it by Christ.
No one in the Vatican has ever made a declaration on dogmatic or moral truths, that has disagreed with Scripture. Which is kind of miraculous given the scum that has passed through there.
The Catholic Church is the only one that has not changed or altered its positions on moral issues. It has not changed or altered its declarations of dogmatic truths.
If you compare the levels of corruption with various Protestant denominations, it shows that Protestants surpassed the level of criminal activity in less than a quarter of the time. That means that Protestants had exponential growth in criminal activity. And this is solely members of Protestant Clergy. Often times, former Catholic clergy get convicted, and people say "look at those Catholic priests again." But when it is a baptist minister, it is hushed and swept under the rug.
The only reason it is attributed to Catholics all the time is that Protestant denominations prefer to hide and promote their guilty clergy. Plus, the anti-Catholics have been successful at promoting this image of "guilty priests." We don't even have to look far for examples of this. MLK and Jesse Jackson, well praised for being seekers of civil rights, have numerous recordings and records of adultery being committed while on these "peace walks/talks." But no one mentions this. Why? Because it is damning to the claim that it is always Catholics.
If you want, I can provide the statistics. All of this is available through GRACE findings.
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I have only one comment to make in favour of the Roman church, that at least they believe evolution happened, and that people are essentially chimpanzees with more expensive toys. We are the products of primate evolution, and so they acknowledge that we aren't perfect, and shouldn't be expected to be.
Of course the wheels come off pretty quickly when they hilariously inject into that evolutionary story a mythical thing they call a 'soul' then claim the soul is broken from birth and offer the only legitimate fix shop in town, just like the worst car mechanics inventing engine problems to fix and charge you for.
Stuart
CherubRam
New member
Perhaps you are not aware of the Sabbath change, or that the Pope claims to be god on earth. Then there is the introduction of the Trinity, cross in place of stake, Hell is place of grave or Gehenna. And the list goes on and on.
jsanford108
New member
Are you wanting an evolution/intelligent design conversation? An existence of
God conversation?
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jsanford108
New member
Sabbath change: the celebration of Sabbath being moved to the day that Christ arose started with the Apostles. The Catholic Church just declared it official.
Pope being God: this is a falsehood. Catholics don't claim this. The Popes never claimed this. This is just a typical anti-Catholic "fact" that gets spread, despite no evidence or logic behind it.
Trinity: the Trinity was taught by the apostles. It is found in Christ's teachings, and throughout the Scriptures. Once again, the Catholic Church just declared it official.
You are right. The list goes on and on. A list of falsehoods and claims that have no merit, evidence, or logic; all which are attempts to dispute the church established by Christ.
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I wasn't looking for any particular conversation. I think what I posted was relevant to your post, and if you want to make something of the half-gnawed bone I threw then go ahead.
Stuart
CherubRam
New member
Sunday Sabbath has nothing to do with Christ resurrection. Christ resurrection came after Monday evening.
Pope is God on Earth
April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288
“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.
“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap
Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894
Pope John Paul II:
"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ." (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter's and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L'Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)
“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble
Pope Nicholas:
“I am in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Viccar of God, have both one consistory. And I am able to do almost all that God can do. I then being above all, seem by this reason to be above all gods.” Source: “The Church Historians of England: Reformation Period” by Josiah Pratt, 1856, p 159
Nicholas also claimed that the Popes had the power to change the gospel itself, “Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Source: “Ibid”, Pratt, p 159
"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"
"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.
These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."
Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."
Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.
Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translation Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205
We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5)
"It must always be clear, when the expression sister churches is used in this proper sense that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not sister but mother of all the particular churches"
-- Cardinal Ratzinger.
Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....FURTHERMORE WE DECLARE, STATE AND DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS THAT THEY SUBMIT TO THE
ROMAN PONTIFF [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino
esse de necessitate salutis]."
"THE POPE IS AS IT WERE GOD ON EARTH, SOLE SOVEREIGN OF THE FAITHFUL OF CHRIST, CHIEF OF KINGS, having plenitude
of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.
• The Pope is God On This Earth
• The Pope is Immortal
• The Pope is Infallible
• The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666
• The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws
• The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures
• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church
• All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ
• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved
• Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful!
• The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth
• Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like
These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685:
"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power
to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."
Pope John XXIII:
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)
"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)
jsanford108
New member
While this is a great collection of quotes, minus the bullet points (which I will address in a different reply), they come from anti-catholic sources, such as Arthur Noble, known for dishonest quotes and heavy revisionism. Every single one of these quotes is edited to give an alternate (and false) idea, altered, or completely made up (bearing no evidence of ever having been said or decreed).
I believe this shows the efforts and tactics of anti-Catholics. They completely edit or alter quotes in order to show their perverse ideals and applications. And if all else fails, they generate completely made up quotes and statistics. All of these are dishonest and not scholarly. There is no merit in this. Simple, honest, and unbiased research will yield a vastly different, and factual, representation of Catholicism (And maybe even a better understanding of Scriptures). To continue to believe and accept falsehoods, like those you presented, is ignorance; preferring perversions to truth.
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CherubRam
New member
Much of those things are Catholic documents that can be found on the Internet.
The Ten Commandments
Protestant: First
Catholic: Second
Hebrew: third
1Pr. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1Ca. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
1He. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
2Pr.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and (keep my commandments).
2Ca.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
2He.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and (keep My commandments).
3Pr.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
3Ca.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
3He.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
4Pr. (Remember) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
4Ca. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
4He.(Remember)the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
jsanford108
New member
Let us work through those things quoted above.
“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble: This is a phrasing by Professor Noble. This is not a quote from any priest or pope. This is a quote that the Noble Professor is attributing to Popes. As stated before, Noble is a devout anti-Catholic, and prone to a history of revision and false applications. Therefore, this quote, and its source, are not reputable.
We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5): This is once again, a quote being projected onto Catholics. This is not a direct quote from any biblical source, nor true Catholic Source. The Catechism of the Catholic Church often refers to Protestants as "our brothers and sisters in Christ." This quote is pure conjecture, and false. It also makes no real sense when compared alongside Catholic teachings.
"The Pope is God On This Earth:" This is a false statement. Obviously, the Pope is not God in any capacity. There is no teaching of Catholic origin that makes this declaration. Once again, we see a false attribution and projection, lacking of merit or evidence. The Pope is a representative of God, but by no means God himself.
"The Pope is Immortal:" This has never been declared by Catholicism. And is clearly a false (and silly) attribution. Especially since there are only two popes even alive today. This is quickly dismissed due to lack of logic and any evidence to the contrary.
"The Pope is Infallible:" This one is a little tricky. This is a "true" statement and attribution, but not in the scope and sense that Protestants declare and believe. The Pope is only "infallible" when making declarations or decrees on moral or dogmatic truths. Which, as I stated before, has never contradicted what is found in Scripture. As stated before, that is quite considerable, given the nuts that have been pope. These statements are made rarely, and are usually just re-declarations of things already taught. Examples of this can easily be found and traced throughout history. In any circumstance outside of making such decrees and declarations, the pope is not considered, by the Catholic Church, infallible. He never has been considered infallible outside of such circumstances. Like ever. So any claim to the contrary is false.
"The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666:" This is just preposterous and borderline insane. This is really people seeing the devil everywhere. I could say, "don't read the Bible! It talks about Satan! How evil!" My claim is true, it talks about Satan, but not in the way I mean. I can string letters together throughout the Bible and create the phrase "Worship and Hail Satan." But this is the work of a twisted mind, no? Both of those examples bear as much weight and merit as this silly claim. This is an active effort at "seeing the devil in the details."
" The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws:" Another false attribute and projection. (I think from now on, I may just say this phrase, as it seems to be a pattern). The Pope clearly does not have this power, because if he did, those corrupt popes could have sent people to hell, sent plagues, etc. Once again, no merit, evidence, or logic.
"The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures:" Once again, false. There is no claim of this, and this is actually contrary to what is taught by Catholicism. No merit, evidence, or logic. Another false projection.
"All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church
All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ
All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved:" This is taken out of context from older Catholic documents. While these claims were put forth, by various religious outraged at the dissension from the Church, they have since been amended (for example, it is not taught that only those under Catholicism are saved). Such claims were not "ex cathedra," (which is the term applied to when a Pope makes a declaration of moral or dogmatic truth), but the rants and beliefs of a few. So, while "true," it is grossly taken out of context.
"Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful:" I give credit where it is due, your quotes did improve to at least minimal truths. While this statement is true, it has to be taken in context with "ex cathedra." Taken, with the full knowledge, that the Pope has never, and will never, make evil or erroneous declarations of moral or dogmatic truths. Obviously, there have been Popes in error and evil. There has never been any denial of that on our part. In fact, it is an excellent point that we, Catholics, always utilize. Paul was once evil. He may have not gotten along with other apostles, after being named Paul. But his declarations were always truthful, no? So, this attribution must be taken in context, and with full knowledge of what it means.
"The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth:" This is a false wording. The Pope is the "Vicar of Christ," but that does not mean "replacement." "Vicar" has never been defined, connotative or denotative, as such. This is a perfect example of utilizing a small truth and perverting it to form a false "fact." This is classic alteration/false attribution.
"Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like:" This is akin to the claim that Christianity comes from Sumerian stories. The whole "Son Saving Humanity" being linked to Sumerian worship of the "Sun saving man from darkness." It is just flimsy, without evidence, merit, or logic (addressing the claim about Sumerians). Likewise, the claim that Popes get the idea of Papal Authority from Roman Caesars is just ludicrous. There has never been any evidence of this. And the claim of authority actually originates from Scripture. If you want to make the claim that Scripture, likewise, Christ's commands and Word, bore no authority, then I can see this argument being a "logical" one, since there is no belief or authority to begin with. However, if the Bible has authority, then any doctrine arising from true rendering of Scripture, evidence by God's Eternal Word, is valid and truth. So, if you believe the Scriptures, then this argument is contradictory to Scripture. But, if you don't give authority to Christ's Word, then your point can remain valid, but that would lead to a different conversation all together.
In closing, most of your points were completely false. The few that were slightly true, were taken out of context completely, or had false projections placed on them, leading to false conclusions. I would always encourage a thorough, unbiased research. And subsequently, a brief review of any author of any research or claim always gives plenty of insight into the integrity of their published material/claims.
jsanford108
New member
The Catholic and Hebrew Ten Commandments are easy to find in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 5). There are a clear 10 listed. The Protestant Ten is a more broken up version, chosen from the passage in Exodus 20.
jsanford108
New member
Is that a dispute? Unless you go on Saturday (technically, Friday evening to Saturday evening), like a Hebrew, and are observing all Deuteronomical laws, then you are utilizing a post-Christ Sabbath. Thus, such a claim as "Catholics changing the Sabbath," bear no weight.