Shasta
Well-known member
Antithetical to purity, righteousness and holiness too because He shapes human beings into immoral "vessels" so He can have someone to vent His wrath upon.
Free Will
- Thread starter Aetheryn
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Antithetical to purity, righteousness and holiness too because He shapes human beings into immoral "vessels" so He can have someone to vent His wrath upon.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hi Shasta,...welcome to the thread,....not sure if you've added much earlier here, but I may be passing the baton,....I've shared alot here already, some great videos too from some of our Jewish Rabbi brothers,...but contending with a few of the hard-heads here about the irrationality of calvinism is tiring after awhile,...especially with the likes of beloved57. You cannot force one to see, until the blinders come off and something blasts away the dogmatic crust from their heart and eyes. The witness of heaven and earth, and God himself, attests to man's freedom of choice shared earlier,...clear passages that refute their damnable theology. And so the hamster wheel keeps spinning.
Did you see EE', 'slaying reformed theology' thread here? We slayed there. One can quote scriptures til the cows come home, but TULIP only has a limited supply of 'proof texts', while a more liberal progressive theist also uses his god-given conscience, reason, logic and spiritual intelligence. I reject it on principle alone (some points of it of course,...Calvin was not wrong or 'off' on everything). Of course we have guidance from the spirit of truth as well, and LOVE and WISDOM foremost
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
You reject so many clear scriptures to hold to a damnable doctrine. That is spiritually tragic.
Look who is agreeing with this comment. JR is doing the same thing too.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hi meshak,
I'm like over Calvinism already....it shall exist as long as belief in this kind of system has support,...I and other have already exposed it,....I remain always open to reconsider and continue researching my views on any subject. The subject of 'free will' goes way beyond calvinism of course. We agree against anything that violates principle, reason, logic, goodness, decency and common sense! Its not rocket science. They've exalted some version of God's sovereignty which distorts God's love to make it partial and selectively given, while their own 'salvation is really 'up for grabs' too, unless they feel that because they just happened to become 'calvinists' that they among the elect ones. They must be, or else why adopt or promote that particular belief-system?
I was not disagreeing with you. I was only pointing out irony of agreement of JR who thanked you for your comment.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
:thumb:
lol, yes I'm sure JR agrees with many of my own sentiments on basic theological and philosophical values and principles. What is important are the subjects we are discussing, the meaning and values of such, and discussing those points. Discusssions can verge off however on so many tangents,...that we forget what we were discussing in the first place. We can waste our words or properly invest them.
Meshak is basically accusing me of not wanting to find the truth, yet she refuses to discuss her views, shutting down the moment I ask her anything. See her pacifism thread.
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
I can only imagine,...she is wonderful no doubt. We all select certain viewpoints that resonate with our own soul or reason at any point in time, and have those viewpoints change as new data comes along forcing us to shift or expand. This includes many souls even changing their religious tradition or cult-ure. I think it best to be OPEN to change, evolve, learn as we go along life's unfolding path. - religious writings, 'scriptures' also seem to support our free will choices in the course of time that may affect our eternal destinies as well.
This sounds so pretentious and lopsided judgement. Did you read JR's interaction with all ant--military Christian at my pacifist thread?
I told him I am all in agreement with all anti-military Christians. But he asked all of them are willing to take his non-stop questions and keep asking similar questions.
Marhag is so patient in answering all his repetious questions. I don't have much patience dealing with JR kind of debaters. So I let her handle him since I am 100% agree with pacifist position.
It seems clear that all he wants is annoying or pestering Christians who don't agree with him.
You seem enabler of this kind of pestering posters, freelight.
If you want to be a fair in you assessment, take a look at how he interact with all his opponents.
I have been reading most of his posts and my assessment of him comes from his posts.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Moving along.......
Moving along.......
Sorry, I havent followed those threads, and cant make an evaluation based on any evidence or lack of evidence,...I made a fairly neutral assessment, rather constructive observation in general in responding, as a creative writing exercise. For me its about 'creative dialogue, learning and expanding consciousness. Sorry you feel such observations are rude or arrogant. There was no intention whatsoever of 'judgment'. That would be a misperception on your part. I'm not making an 'judgments', just sharing positive points and thoughts for reflection that people can maybe use in an insightful way.
I pretty much hold my own weight around here, and am not supporting any anyone who I think lacks integrity, is trolling, pestering, bullying or engaging in intellectual dishonesty, condescending remarks or hateful behavior. I call that out on the spot, but carry on in my usual fashion in engaging subjects philosophically, exploring all dimensions. Just like we're doing here on the subject of free will. I may add another video lecture from a Jewish Rabbi, adding to the Jewish view collection.,...as well as a short commentary on a dissertation I'm reading now by Saint Augustine, 'On Grace and Free Will'. - its good to get some insights on what the early Church Fathers believed on these subjects, and how the doctrine has evolved thru-out the centuries into our modern times.
Moving along.......
Sorry, I havent followed those threads, and cant make an evaluation based on any evidence or lack of evidence,...I made a fairly neutral assessment, rather constructive observation in general in responding, as a creative writing exercise. For me its about 'creative dialogue, learning and expanding consciousness. Sorry you feel such observations are rude or arrogant. There was no intention whatsoever of 'judgment'. That would be a misperception on your part. I'm not making an 'judgments', just sharing positive points and thoughts for reflection that people can maybe use in an insightful way.
I pretty much hold my own weight around here, and am not supporting any anyone who I think lacks integrity, is trolling, pestering, bullying or engaging in intellectual dishonesty, condescending remarks or hateful behavior. I call that out on the spot, but carry on in my usual fashion in engaging subjects philosophically, exploring all dimensions. Just like we're doing here on the subject of free will. I may add another video lecture from a Jewish Rabbi, adding to the Jewish view collection.,...as well as a short commentary on a dissertation I'm reading now by Saint Augustine, 'On Grace and Free Will'. - its good to get some insights on what the early Church Fathers believed on these subjects, and how the doctrine has evolved thru-out the centuries into our modern times.
well, you seem to be admonishing me which I found it lopsided. If you are neutral you should be silent.
If someone wants to give this verse to B57, it will answer his longstanding question.
Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord,And teach me Your judgments. - Psalm 119:108 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm119:108&version=NKJV
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Accept, I pray, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord,And teach me Your judgments. - Psalm 119:108 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm119:108&version=NKJV
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Here's another:
*For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! *For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. - 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians9:16-17&version=NKJV
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*For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! *For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. - 1 Corinthians 9:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians9:16-17&version=NKJV
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
beloved57 can only respond IF he has been predestined to do so :crackup:
:rapture:
What's even funnier is that there have been plenty of debates on predestination vs free will where, if predestination is true, then why did the open theists win the debates?
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Funny is as funny goes.....
Funny is as funny goes.....
Some religious dogmas die hard, while a seeker after truth remains flexible to continually learn, modify or adapt his view to progressive revelation.
Accepting TULIP in its classical or hyper versions releases man from his personal responsibility, - so hes ultimately not responsible for any choice for salvation or damnation, so hes left totally off the hook,...since they place every action and reaction in the hands of 'God'. While this may appear to enable 'God' to maintain complete 'sovereignty' or 'glory', it robs man of his authentic freedom to engage living as a free moral agent and robs him of the free enterprise and creativity of love.
One becomes enslaved to the systematic theology itself, which is a death-trap really, theological grid-lock into oblivion. - you're only hope is IF....that's a Big IF...God has chosen you for salvation. You do not know if he did, and along the path....its still your own response to God's grace and his empowering that enables you to continue in faith anyways,...so,...looks like its all 'synergestic' after all. BUT it can become confusing for those who fall away from the faith, because some might assume they never were really chosen, hence God did not uphold them, so let them fall, as he is going to pass over them anyhow at the last day, and let them DIE. - so no matter how 'monergistic' they claim that 'salvation/sanctification' is....its 'synergestically' accomplished.
Funny is as funny goes.....
Some religious dogmas die hard, while a seeker after truth remains flexible to continually learn, modify or adapt his view to progressive revelation.
Accepting TULIP in its classical or hyper versions releases man from his personal responsibility, - so hes ultimately not responsible for any choice for salvation or damnation, so hes left totally off the hook,...since they place every action and reaction in the hands of 'God'. While this may appear to enable 'God' to maintain complete 'sovereignty' or 'glory', it robs man of his authentic freedom to engage living as a free moral agent and robs him of the free enterprise and creativity of love.
One becomes enslaved to the systematic theology itself, which is a death-trap really, theological grid-lock into oblivion. - you're only hope is IF....that's a Big IF...God has chosen you for salvation. You do not know if he did, and along the path....its still your own response to God's grace and his empowering that enables you to continue in faith anyways,...so,...looks like its all 'synergestic' after all. BUT it can become confusing for those who fall away from the faith, because some might assume they never were really chosen, hence God did not uphold them, so let them fall, as he is going to pass over them anyhow at the last day, and let them DIE. - so no matter how 'monergistic' they claim that 'salvation/sanctification' is....its 'synergestically' accomplished.
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If God knows the future then we are not free to do anything other than that which He knows we will do.
The heretical Pelagian copout, "well He did not CAUSE it," fails to rescue the doctrine of free will. Free will implies the ability to do something different. But as long as God knows with certainty what we will do then we can't do anything different. No free will then.
Their only hope is open theism, a god who doesn't know the future. Or a molinist blasphemy that claims men existed before God existed.
The heretical Pelagian copout, "well He did not CAUSE it," fails to rescue the doctrine of free will. Free will implies the ability to do something different. But as long as God knows with certainty what we will do then we can't do anything different. No free will then.
Their only hope is open theism, a god who doesn't know the future. Or a molinist blasphemy that claims men existed before God existed.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
free willin it ..................
free willin it ..................
Can you prove foreknowledge totally negates freedom of choice? Otherwise, there are plenty of theologians and philosophers who have challenged this assumption and hold that God can know all things in advance, seeing the past, present and future simultaneous as it were,...while the players on the screen are still free to decide and to choose their actions within any given scope or range of possibilities.
God still calls men to respond, to engage in choices, and the offer between different options/possibilities arise in every moment.
Maybe God knowing all potentials and possibilties in existence is enough? - and still in his infinity of will and innovation, can still have his will ultimately prevail due to his sovereign control over all other elements in creation bearing down on the whole, while man is given freedom to act within those bounderies.
free willin it ..................
Can you prove foreknowledge totally negates freedom of choice? Otherwise, there are plenty of theologians and philosophers who have challenged this assumption and hold that God can know all things in advance, seeing the past, present and future simultaneous as it were,...while the players on the screen are still free to decide and to choose their actions within any given scope or range of possibilities.
God still calls men to respond, to engage in choices, and the offer between different options/possibilities arise in every moment.
Maybe God knowing all potentials and possibilties in existence is enough? - and still in his infinity of will and innovation, can still have his will ultimately prevail due to his sovereign control over all other elements in creation bearing down on the whole, while man is given freedom to act within those bounderies.