So not forcing people who hate Him to live with Him for the rest of eternity is unjust?
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Free Will
- Thread starter Aetheryn
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So not forcing people who hate Him to live with Him for the rest of eternity is unjust?
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You all have a self-righteous opinion on what is 'just'- before you all came along, it was considered blasphemous to merit your own idea of what is 'just' to the workings of God.
God created a reality which is ripe with death, destruction, and eternal damnation- you all don't even try to rationalize that, because you can't. You all jump from one flip floppy thing to the next because you're a bunch of theological sleazes.
God's Truth
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The scriptures tell us that before God made the world and all creation, he made the plan for salvation (1 Peter 1:20). From the scriptures, we also learn that God made us with the ability to choose right and wrong, and that God knew we would sin (Ephesians 1:4). God also knew that we who do want to obey; we will not be able to stop sinning against God without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 64:5).
In Calvin’s theory, God made us without the ability to believe. Calvinists believe that God would save some for no known reason. However, the Bible tells us why God saves those he saves and not others. They hear the truth and want to be reconciled to God so much so that they get forceful about it (Matthew 11:12; Luke 16:16). Those saved humbled themselves (2 Chronicles 7:14; James 4:10). Those who God saved wanted to know God more than they wanted anything else (Jeremiah 29:13; Deuteronomy 4:29; 1 Chronicles 28:9). They believe and confess (Romans 10:10). They obey by believing (Acts 10:44; Acts 11:14; Acts 19:2). They believe, they love God and obey (John 14:23; Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32). They call out to the Lord whom they obey to save them (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; Romans 10:13; James 1:22).
In Calvin’s theory, God made us without the ability to believe. Calvinists believe that God would save some for no known reason. However, the Bible tells us why God saves those he saves and not others. They hear the truth and want to be reconciled to God so much so that they get forceful about it (Matthew 11:12; Luke 16:16). Those saved humbled themselves (2 Chronicles 7:14; James 4:10). Those who God saved wanted to know God more than they wanted anything else (Jeremiah 29:13; Deuteronomy 4:29; 1 Chronicles 28:9). They believe and confess (Romans 10:10). They obey by believing (Acts 10:44; Acts 11:14; Acts 19:2). They believe, they love God and obey (John 14:23; Acts 2:38; Acts 5:32). They call out to the Lord whom they obey to save them (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; Romans 10:13; James 1:22).
God's Truth
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Haaaaaaa! Now that was good.
Interesting concept but I think this puts God on a linear plain. Instead, consider Him outside of time. This would help understand how God may have know all with out impeding our free will.
Also, second portion may also indicate a response.
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
A bit confusing eh? - it would be much simpler to observe that love fosters a willful and joyous union, desire and will to be one with another (here its very source, being 'God'). In this loving will is no sin, but only the lawful principle and spirit of life dynamically alive in us, fulfilling the law of our existence. We are responding to the Spirit shed abroad in our own hearts, the motive of love, in covenantal union. Our will inspired by love naturally gravitates to its beloved to be fulfilled thereby, and such is life, wholeness, healing, salvation.
This is perfectly normal. This is what Calvinist's are tought to say when you lead them to the theological boundaries of their doctrines.
#The bright side is that Calvin had people corporally punished or worse when they showed him scripture or logic that busts Calvinism.
God's Truth
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I am not sure what you mean. I would like to discuss more what is on your mind. Could you explain your thoughts to me more?
God's Truth
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Couldn't you speak like that and not venture outside the realm of the Holy Bible?
God's Truth
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You too attack people who do not agree with you.
With sarcasm Sister.... not a call of damnation.
I always admit I'm fallible
# Surrender Sister!
Calvinism doesn't have anything to do with man saving himself
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The principles, ethics and moral insights shared are within a 'biblical' context, even though using various terms with shared universal meaning
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Loving Crucible....bones and all......
Loving Crucible....bones and all......
We see that God so loved the world, that he gave His Son....and it is Love's very nature to give, save, redeem, heal, restore, uplift, envalue, elevate, edify, preserve and empower its beloved,...is it not? Is not God's love universal, if not infinite? Does not his love extend to all like the living rays of the sun fall on all? Does not also the rain fall on all, the good and evil alike? See Jesus teaching on this,...it can be quite life-changing - you will also note in HIS teaching,...that we are called to be 'perfect' even as Our Father in heaven is perfect,...by SHOWING a love that is impartial, showing no favoritism of one over another,...but extending the love of God to all souls, and its in this very WAY, that we are perfect (and 'perfected) in love, just like Our Father IS - isn't that awesome? How many do you know who actually follow the Lord Jesus teaching and actually LOVE their enemies?....to say nothing of one's neighbor! - something to think about there. I guess it depends if Jesus words really matter, of if someone else's interpretation or 'modification' of his words are more important. Each have to choose eh? Either God is love, or He is not. Love gives,...is for-giving. Let us not despise or dishonor love.
I see no 'God' of the sort, because I see only the Love and Light that God IS. - with this understanding or knowing of 'God-reality', I do not discount or deny that some entertain the shadowy, dark and pernicious image of 'God' as a purveyor of 'death', 'destruction', 'eternal damnation'....even though these are more descriptive of some demonic or satanic personality, to actually mete out eternal suffering and torment as such, a motivation that is entirely contrary and illogical to LOVE. Again, let us consider what Love's will is. Have you contemplated that? And have you first BEGUN with what 'God' actually IS First? You must begin with Love, and end with Love.
Love does not condemn, malign, devalue or demean. Love redeems all the space and time given over to what is not love, and allows the opportunity to return to reality, to love itself, to be made whole thereby. In Love, there is no sin, no lack, no privation. Only LIFE. This divine Reality is what actually IS,...here, now. This is the reality that reigns, as absolute. - it is unconditionally present, wholly available, infinitely potent.
Loving Crucible....bones and all......
We see that God so loved the world, that he gave His Son....and it is Love's very nature to give, save, redeem, heal, restore, uplift, envalue, elevate, edify, preserve and empower its beloved,...is it not? Is not God's love universal, if not infinite? Does not his love extend to all like the living rays of the sun fall on all? Does not also the rain fall on all, the good and evil alike? See Jesus teaching on this,...it can be quite life-changing
- you will also note in HIS teaching,...that we are called to be 'perfect' even as Our Father in heaven is perfect,...by SHOWING a love that is impartial, showing no favoritism of one over another,...but extending the love of God to all souls, and its in this very WAY, that we are perfect (and 'perfected) in love, just like Our Father IS - isn't that awesome? How many do you know who actually follow the Lord Jesus teaching and actually LOVE their enemies?....to say nothing of one's neighbor! - something to think about there. I guess it depends if Jesus words really matter, of if someone else's interpretation or 'modification' of his words are more important. Each have to choose eh? Either God is love, or He is not. Love gives,...is for-giving. Let us not despise or dishonor love.Spoiler
I see no 'God' of the sort, because I see only the Love and Light that God IS. - with this understanding or knowing of 'God-reality', I do not discount or deny that some entertain the shadowy, dark and pernicious image of 'God' as a purveyor of 'death', 'destruction', 'eternal damnation'....even though these are more descriptive of some demonic or satanic personality, to actually mete out eternal suffering and torment as such, a motivation that is entirely contrary and illogical to LOVE. Again, let us consider what Love's will is. Have you contemplated that? And have you first BEGUN with what 'God' actually IS First? You must begin with Love, and end with Love.
Love does not condemn, malign, devalue or demean. Love redeems all the space and time given over to what is not love, and allows the opportunity to return to reality, to love itself, to be made whole thereby. In Love, there is no sin, no lack, no privation. Only LIFE. This divine Reality is what actually IS,...here, now. This is the reality that reigns, as absolute. - it is unconditionally present, wholly available, infinitely potent.
God's Truth
New member
The principles, ethics and moral insights shared are within a 'biblical' context, even though using various terms with shared universal meaning
Sorry to hear you say that.
God's Truth
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It is not right.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
No apology.................
No apology.................
Why? Again, the principles, meanings and values I communicate are found in the bible, and are consonant with human experience. Not everything has to have a specific bible passage to have validity, value or meaning. In fact, the subject here in general, has been treated by metaphysicians, philosophers, scientists (not just theologians) for centuries, its a very complex subject, an issue of 'debate' on a variety of different levels.
The subject of free will is huge. - it extends beyond a biblical context,...we just happen to be discussing it within a 'religious' context, which includes the Bible, of course, and in fact all religious traditions, human experience and cultures. 'Free will' isn't limited to the Bible, its discussed/explored in other fields of study and discipline as well.
If you're following, I'm in favor of 'free will'(genuine freedom of choice existing, however within a limited range of options, contextually speaking) and that its plainly revealed in scriptures, per passages we've already shared here. Some deny this, and one in particular keeps asking "where is free will in the scriptures?"...despite numerous obvious passages shared. Its a merry-go-round.
No apology.................
Why? Again, the principles, meanings and values I communicate are found in the bible, and are consonant with human experience. Not everything has to have a specific bible passage to have validity, value or meaning. In fact, the subject here in general, has been treated by metaphysicians, philosophers, scientists (not just theologians) for centuries, its a very complex subject, an issue of 'debate' on a variety of different levels.
The subject of free will is huge. - it extends beyond a biblical context,...we just happen to be discussing it within a 'religious' context, which includes the Bible, of course, and in fact all religious traditions, human experience and cultures. 'Free will' isn't limited to the Bible, its discussed/explored in other fields of study and discipline as well.
If you're following, I'm in favor of 'free will'(genuine freedom of choice existing, however within a limited range of options, contextually speaking) and that its plainly revealed in scriptures, per passages we've already shared here. Some deny this, and one in particular keeps asking "where is free will in the scriptures?"...despite numerous obvious passages shared. Its a merry-go-round.
This would be a great point, but it's dead wrong.
Genesis 1:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
God created a world that was "very good". Not one that was "ripe with death, destruction, and eternal damnation."
Death? There would have been plant death, as all the creatures on the earth, including man, would have been vegetarian. And there would have been cell death, like skin cells, for example. But no death of animals or man.
Destruction? Unless you count plant cells being destroyed when eaten... none.
Eternal Damnation? That would have come from Adam's fall, and then from the first time humans sinned.
Calling us "a bunch of theological sleazes" doesn't sound like you're being very rational to me. Pot, meet Kettle.
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