God's Truth
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From what you say here, I have said nothing that was wrong.
Free Will
- Thread starter Aetheryn
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From what you say here, I have said nothing that was wrong.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Freedom of Choice.................
Freedom of Choice.................
Hi Aetheryn and all following,
(out of respect to the thread-flow, I have read at least the first and last 3-4 pages of the thread, for a precursory download of whats been shared so far) - this subject is always a fun one
First of all, if 'God' is the source of all that exists, actually and potentially,...then He is the source of 'free-will', and we'll use this 'term' as a generic/general one to indicate 'freedom of choice'. (many may nit-pick over the specifics of the term's meaning, but that will suffice for discussion's sake). So,...all 'freedom of choice', all intentional directives by any intelligent being, spirit or soul, originates from the Father-God, who enables and allows for such liberties to exist. So the ability/opportunity of Eve's choice did not originate from the devil, logically speaking. I think this is pretty clear. He or anyone else that appears, is but a potentially influencing factor in how we respond in any given situation. So, "the devil made me do it doesn't always fly" - this is even worse for a hyper Calvinist, because 'God' is the one assumed to be making one a lover of iniquity, who has absolutely no choice in the matter, which defeats the very goodness of 'God' to say nothing of so many more heinous things this 'belief' equates to.
~*~*~
Opportunities for man's free exercise of choice were naturally granted so man could experience the full range of his powers of choice and their effects. Without diving into all the allegorical meanings and symbolism of the 'Garden of Eden' wherein Adam and Eve were supposedly placed, I think some aspects of this specific story are merely 'allegorical', and serve a deeper meaning purpose of the authors, and naturally so, since writers of religious texts have a purpose for their writing, obviously, some of these things being 'esoteric' in nature. In any case, with 'free will', allowances are made for the full spectrum of 'good' and 'evil' thoughts, words and actions to be experienced, at least in their 'potential'. Therefore in any realm of existence where freedom of thought/choice exists,....naturally all potentials and possibilities latent in the power of 'thought' and 'choice' will be present, and have their conditional effects when exercised.
Even at this very moment, in 'consciousness', you have latent within, all the potentials and possibilities of consciousness. The laws and principles that govern the cause/effects of your thoughts, words, actions are karmic in nature,....so naturally you experience the harvest of the kinds of seed you plant by your actions. 'Karma' here simply is the Sanskrit word for 'action' and its corresponding effects. - it just so happens by this universal law, wherever you are existing (whatever dimension), the law will be in effect, as long as you are capable of any thought or action. "what is sown, is reaped" (this is also called the law of retribution or the law of compensation, etc.). - this is fundamental, unless by some transcendental power of grace or spirit-liberation you rise above the very law of karma, and abide in pure love, where sin has no power or effect. This of course is the ideal state, that we do in fact abide in, as we walk in the Spirit, in love, by love's law. - it is this that Paul called the 'law of the Spirit of life, in Christ Jesus'. - also, 'where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty' to do all that the Spirit wills, for the Spirit is life.
To recap,....all free will must originate with the Original Creator who Himself has free will (the source of will), and has allowed individual units of consciousness (spirit-souls) to have a measure or degree of free will as well. In this way, all creation is an ongoing venture of 'co-creation', progressive evolution, 'relationiship', learning, on-going transformation, information. In this way, all creation evolves together in a co-creative process. In this higher cosmology of love-response and freedom, we can reflect on various aspects of Open Theism and Process Theology - but this again, is another side venue.
Freedom of Choice.................
Hi Aetheryn and all following,
(out of respect to the thread-flow, I have read at least the first and last 3-4 pages of the thread, for a precursory download of whats been shared so far) - this subject is always a fun one
First of all, if 'God' is the source of all that exists, actually and potentially,...then He is the source of 'free-will', and we'll use this 'term' as a generic/general one to indicate 'freedom of choice'. (many may nit-pick over the specifics of the term's meaning, but that will suffice for discussion's sake). So,...all 'freedom of choice', all intentional directives by any intelligent being, spirit or soul, originates from the Father-God, who enables and allows for such liberties to exist. So the ability/opportunity of Eve's choice did not originate from the devil, logically speaking. I think this is pretty clear. He or anyone else that appears, is but a potentially influencing factor in how we respond in any given situation. So, "the devil made me do it doesn't always fly" - this is even worse for a hyper Calvinist, because 'God' is the one assumed to be making one a lover of iniquity, who has absolutely no choice in the matter, which defeats the very goodness of 'God' to say nothing of so many more heinous things this 'belief' equates to.
~*~*~
Opportunities for man's free exercise of choice were naturally granted so man could experience the full range of his powers of choice and their effects. Without diving into all the allegorical meanings and symbolism of the 'Garden of Eden' wherein Adam and Eve were supposedly placed, I think some aspects of this specific story are merely 'allegorical', and serve a deeper meaning purpose of the authors, and naturally so, since writers of religious texts have a purpose for their writing, obviously, some of these things being 'esoteric' in nature. In any case, with 'free will', allowances are made for the full spectrum of 'good' and 'evil' thoughts, words and actions to be experienced, at least in their 'potential'. Therefore in any realm of existence where freedom of thought/choice exists,....naturally all potentials and possibilities latent in the power of 'thought' and 'choice' will be present, and have their conditional effects when exercised.
Even at this very moment, in 'consciousness', you have latent within, all the potentials and possibilities of consciousness. The laws and principles that govern the cause/effects of your thoughts, words, actions are karmic in nature,....so naturally you experience the harvest of the kinds of seed you plant by your actions. 'Karma' here simply is the Sanskrit word for 'action' and its corresponding effects. - it just so happens by this universal law, wherever you are existing (whatever dimension), the law will be in effect, as long as you are capable of any thought or action. "what is sown, is reaped" (this is also called the law of retribution or the law of compensation, etc.). - this is fundamental, unless by some transcendental power of grace or spirit-liberation you rise above the very law of karma, and abide in pure love, where sin has no power or effect. This of course is the ideal state, that we do in fact abide in, as we walk in the Spirit, in love, by love's law. - it is this that Paul called the 'law of the Spirit of life, in Christ Jesus'. - also, 'where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty' to do all that the Spirit wills, for the Spirit is life.
To recap,....all free will must originate with the Original Creator who Himself has free will (the source of will), and has allowed individual units of consciousness (spirit-souls) to have a measure or degree of free will as well. In this way, all creation is an ongoing venture of 'co-creation', progressive evolution, 'relationiship', learning, on-going transformation, information. In this way, all creation evolves together in a co-creative process. In this higher cosmology of love-response and freedom, we can reflect on various aspects of Open Theism and Process Theology
- but this again, is another side venue.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Self defeating god.............
Self defeating god.............
Hi Nanja
Its been awhile since we fenced
Your conceptual 'God' is in quite a quandary, since His will is self-defeating. It is furthermore divisive, conflicting, irrational, egotistical, self-serving and tyrannical to say the least. Oh, did I forget 'non-sensical'?
I guess you should be so lucky (well, you really didn't have a choice in the matter eh) to be the 'elect' of the Lord. Not saying you've claimed to be his 'elect', but that kinda comes with the marching orders, or else why toot the Lord's horn? - or maybe you have no choice there either
But putting aside all the dogma and encrusted belief-system, programmed theology, etc.....have you ever thought that maybe there really is a measure of genuine 'freedom of choice' that LOVE has freely allowed you to take part in, where you really have a 'response-ability'? Think 'co-operate effort',...'co-creation', 'joint-venture',...a true partnership (covenants include the cooperative loyalty of two parties). Doesn't love give you the freedom to CHOOSE and enter into 'covenant'? - 'choice' is an essential element in genuine freedom. Without it, you really aren't free are you.
Well yes, of course it is the Lord who wills, inspires and empowers us to do his good pleasure. Our very life, being, breath....is because of His grace. That goes without saying. But with that, his very invitation and admonishing to CHOOSE, shows we do have freedom of choice. He loves us enough to give us free will. Now think,...in contrast,...if he didn't really love us fully, he wouldn't give us any measure of free will whatsoever. Maybe that's what Love entails,...the allowance of real freedom, real response-ability, voluntary action, intentional community. Wouldn't it be better to glory in a 'God' who is Love? A universal God who gives all an opportunity to be saved, fulfill their purpose for being, unfold their true potential....to God's glory? Isnt this more praiseworthy, than a 'god' who predestines a good % of souls to eternal damnation, by no choice or fault of their own? That's insanity my dear.
Anyways,....others have chimed in on similar points already, its old hat for me.
Namaste!
Self defeating god.............
Hi Nanja
Its been awhile since we fenced
Your conceptual 'God' is in quite a quandary, since His will is self-defeating. It is furthermore divisive, conflicting, irrational, egotistical, self-serving and tyrannical to say the least. Oh, did I forget 'non-sensical'?
I guess you should be so lucky (well, you really didn't have a choice in the matter eh) to be the 'elect' of the Lord. Not saying you've claimed to be his 'elect', but that kinda comes with the marching orders, or else why toot the Lord's horn? - or maybe you have no choice there either
But putting aside all the dogma and encrusted belief-system, programmed theology, etc.....have you ever thought that maybe there really is a measure of genuine 'freedom of choice' that LOVE has freely allowed you to take part in, where you really have a 'response-ability'? Think 'co-operate effort',...'co-creation', 'joint-venture',...a true partnership (covenants include the cooperative loyalty of two parties). Doesn't love give you the freedom to CHOOSE and enter into 'covenant'? - 'choice' is an essential element in genuine freedom. Without it, you really aren't free are you.
Well yes, of course it is the Lord who wills, inspires and empowers us to do his good pleasure. Our very life, being, breath....is because of His grace. That goes without saying. But with that, his very invitation and admonishing to CHOOSE, shows we do have freedom of choice. He loves us enough to give us free will. Now think,...in contrast,...if he didn't really love us fully, he wouldn't give us any measure of free will whatsoever. Maybe that's what Love entails,...the allowance of real freedom, real response-ability, voluntary action, intentional community. Wouldn't it be better to glory in a 'God' who is Love? A universal God who gives all an opportunity to be saved, fulfill their purpose for being, unfold their true potential....to God's glory? Isnt this more praiseworthy, than a 'god' who predestines a good % of souls to eternal damnation, by no choice or fault of their own? That's insanity my dear.
Anyways,....others have chimed in on similar points already, its old hat for me.
Namaste!
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
show me, show me........
show me, show me........
A self-evident faculty within man's own soul, doesn't need a 'proof-text' to exist, it being self-evident. I guess that's one of the problem with hyper Calvinists,...they only have a few 'proof-texts' that they love to hang their laurels on.
Many scriptures, if you want to use Bible verses to prove anything (although many realities of life being self evident do NOT need a bible verse to prove their existence), speak of God giving man CHOICES, and furthermore recommending, encouraging him to make the RIGHT choices. Did that clear observation of your devoted bible study happen to escape your notice?
OR does your 'dogma' get in the way?
show me, show me........
A self-evident faculty within man's own soul, doesn't need a 'proof-text' to exist, it being self-evident. I guess that's one of the problem with hyper Calvinists,...they only have a few 'proof-texts' that they love to hang their laurels on.
Many scriptures, if you want to use Bible verses to prove anything (although many realities of life being self evident do NOT need a bible verse to prove their existence), speak of God giving man CHOICES, and furthermore recommending, encouraging him to make the RIGHT choices. Did that clear observation of your devoted bible study happen to escape your notice?
OR does your 'dogma' get in the way?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
beloved57
Well-known member
beloved57
Well-known member
marhig
Well-known member
Having a choice is free will, so when Joshua said "choose you this day whom you will serve" they had a free will to choose. (Joshua 24)
And here in Deuteronomy 30, they are given a choice. So they have a free will!
Deuteronomy 30
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live
Every day we choose to do right or wrong, because we have free will. So to say that we don't have a free will, is just foolishness!
beloved57
Well-known member
marhig
Well-known member
Ah come on beloved, surely you know that if you choose to do something then you have a free will?
Jesus had a free will, he said "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." John 6
So if Jesus had free will, then so do we, Jesus made his choice and he decided to obey and do the will of God. And we have a choice to make also obey God and do his will or not! This is free will!
beloved57
Well-known member
Show me the scripture that says man has a freewill! You have been making all these claims purely by presumption!
marhig
Well-known member
I have! Joshua said choose you this day whom you will serve, that is free will!
And the verse in Deuteronomy 30, they both show that we have free will! How can you not see that?
What do you think it is when you have a choice to make a decision between right and wrong, if it's not having free will?
Do you know what free will means? What does it mean to you?
popsthebuilder
New member
Thanks for addressing my points and questions
Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk
beloved57
Well-known member
Show me a scripture that says man has a freewill! You can't, all presumption.
Nanja
Well-known member
False!
According to the scriptures FAITH is a fruit of the Spirit Given in New Birth.
Gal. 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith
Before a person is Born of God, nothing they do can please Him Rom. 8:7-8.
They can't even Hear [understand] God's Words!
John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
That's why you can't understand the Word of God, because you are not of God; but in an unregenerate state.
Eph. 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
marhig
Well-known member
Your making no sense, I have already!
beloved57
Well-known member
Now you lying!
marhig
Well-known member
I wrote a whole post to you but I think I deleted it before I posted it!
Anyway, I was wondering how you came to know God? My uncle was an atheist too, and he heard a preacher on a street, he wasn't a mainstream church preacher, he preached the word of God from his heart. And what what he said went right to the heart of my uncle.
Some people hear the word, but others see the life first before they listen. What brought you to God?
marhig
Well-known member
GT, shouldn't we be more happy that pops is no longer an atheist? It's not what he was before, it's what he is now. And he loves God now.
Luke 15
It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
I'm glad that pops knows God now and that he is lost no more.