Free Will

TulipBee

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I didn't know where else to put this, but in the time of Adam and Eve, when Eve was instructed to eat the Apple, did that mean the devil gave her the free will to do it? Or does it mean he was opening eves awareness to do things she wasn't instructed to do, like disobeying God (much like he did), and in a way exercising her free will?

All in all, who gave us free will, God who created us with that capacity , or the devil who let the early humans understand we had that capacity?

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The worm doesn't have free will the have and use arms and legs like a man. Free will means free to use whatever they're capable to do in thier own nature.
I don't buy other ridiculous explainations of free will. That comes from the root of evil that appears good.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Matthew: 22. 37. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

That's not possible by one whose heart is wicked Jer. 17:9!

But this kind of Love, along with Faith, is fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth to all God's Elect when they are Given a New Heart Ezek. 36:26-27.

Gal. 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

Deut. 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
God's Will is Sovereign and controls and determines the will of the inhabitants of the earth.

Of course your ideas match perfectly with the teaching of the Calvinists. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions"
[emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

The Calvinists teach that this so-called "universal corruption of mankind" is conveyed to all men by "ordinary generation." Only God can be responsible for the laws of procreation so if a person is born with a nature described as being "wholly inclined to all evil" then only God can be blamed for a man being evil.

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil"
(Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

According to the way the Calvinist's portray God He creates some men for the express purpose of punishing them forever and forever with wrath!

The God which I worship is not the same imaginary one which you worship!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
God's Will is Sovereign and controls and determines the will of the inhabitants of the earth.

Then how do you explain that the "will" of the following people who acted against the will of God? The Lord Jesus said this:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
(Mt.23:37).​

If man does everything which the LORD wills him to do then how do you explain this verse which shows men going against the will of what the LORD wills them to do?
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
That's not possible by one whose heart is wicked Jer. 17:9!

But this kind of Love, along with Faith, is fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth to all God's Elect when they are Given a New Heart Ezek. 36:26-27.

Gal. 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

Deut. 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
We are in agreement it seems.

I only attests that freewill for man is indeed part of GOD's Will for creation.

peace

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Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
I didn't know where else to put this, but in the time of Adam and Eve, when Eve was instructed to eat the Apple, did that mean the devil gave her the free will to do it? Or does it mean he was opening eves awareness to do things she wasn't instructed to do, like disobeying God (much like he did), and in a way exercising her free will?

All in all, who gave us free will, God who created us with that capacity , or the devil who let the early humans understand we had that capacity?

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I said
MANS WILL(FREE) MAN HAS THE WILL BUT NOT THE WAY

2 Cor 8:12
12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
Col 3:5-6
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
Jude 1:19
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
Jude 1:16
16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.
2 Cor 6:12
12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own passions
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
1 Tim 6:4-5
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Rom 8:20
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 9:16-18
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Rom 9:23
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 11:32-33
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
Heb 10:26
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Rom 9:19-21
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:33
33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
Heb 10:5-7
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come-- in the volume of the book it is written of Me-- to do Your will, O God.' "
Phil 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Eph 5:17
17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Rom 7:15-21
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
Rom 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
John 14:1
1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
John 14:5-6
5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 6:29
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 5:23
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Acts 4:12
12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
I Jn 2:1-2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
John 14:16
16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Titus 1:7
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
2 Pet 2:19
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
1 Cor 7:23
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
Rom 6:5-6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:16-20
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21-23
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Acts 17:27-29
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
(NKJ)

XXX We have an inner man, and an outer person. Our inner man is our spirit(mind of our inner man) and soul(body of our inner man). Our spirit makes all the decisions on who and what to believe, our soul is where our affections come from. Our outer person is where our flesh and emotions(unclean spirits) live with our guardian angel, the devil, and if we are blessed the Holy Spirit lives. Our inner man is who is going to be held responsible on judgment day. For who it submitted to. Our will is our desires to do what is right.They get covered up pushed back and blocked by our flesh. Desire is not an absolute. And will is desire. That that I will to do I do not do(Without Gods help) that that I will not to do is what I do (because of emotions, unclean spirits). So you are free to will it, but how to perform it has to come from God. So we have choices and we have free will. What we dont have is ability. We need God for ability. Now the big question is how to get God to help us. Prayer, humility, submission, changing our beliefs. One step or verse at a time.



Rom 7:11-25
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(NKJ)

xxx God didnt give us our emotions, we enherited them from our parents. But they are the reason we dont have ability to do our will. Our will comes from our inner man. Will is to desire . Our inner man desires to please God. But our outer person where our emotions dwell deceive us. And the more we give into our outer person the stronger it gets. Until it controls us.

John 6:44-45
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
(NKJ)

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
(NKJ)


2 Cor 8:1-3
1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia:
2 that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality.
3 For I bear witness that according to their ability, yes, and beyond their ability, they were freely willing,
(NKJ)
 

Nanja

Well-known member
We are in agreement it seems.

I only attests that freewill for man is indeed part of GOD's Will for creation.

I know you do, but there's no scripture that says that.

On the contrary, the scriptures teach that God does according to His Supreme Will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth Dan. 4:35.


It's God's Sovereign Will that the only portion of humanity that will inherit Salvation are His Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9, God's adopted Children, chosen in union with Christ to be holy and without blame before Him in love.

Eph. 1:3-5, 11
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Then how do you explain that the "will" of the following people who acted against the will of God? The Lord Jesus said this:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
(Mt.23:37).​

If man does everything which the LORD wills him to do then how do you explain this verse which shows men going against the will of what the LORD wills them to do?


They would not, because it was God's Will that they would not.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
According to the way the Calvinist's portray God He creates some men for the express purpose of punishing them forever and forever with wrath!

The God which I worship is not the same imaginary one which you worship!


The god you worship is the one The Potter appointed you to worship.

Rom. 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
I know you do, but there's no scripture that says that.

On the contrary, the scriptures teach that God does according to His Supreme Will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth Dan. 4:35.


It's God's Sovereign Will that the only portion of humanity that will inherit Salvation are His Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9, God's adopted Children, chosen in union with Christ to be holy and without blame before Him in love.

Eph. 1:3-5, 11
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Okay....If only the Will of GOD is what GOD allows then it follows that since we have free will, GOD must allow it, and if GOD allows it then it is HIS will.

By the way; you make it seem like GOD wills the evil within existence as opposed to allowing it. That can't be right.

peace

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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The god you worship is the one The Potter appointed you to worship.

Rom. 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

If the Lord "willed" that some would be used to make His power known then it would make no sense that He "endured with much longsuffering" toward those vessels.

Let us look what is said here:

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Ro.1:19-20).​

Paul is saying that the people who do not believe in God are "without excuse." But if the Lord willed that they would deny the existence of God then they would have a very good excuse.

They could say that the Lord willed that I will not believe in God and who am I that can go against His will? Therefore, the unbelievers would have a very good excuse for not believing in God.

Paul's words prove that your ideas are wrong because he says that the unbelievers are "without excuse"!
 
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Nanja

Well-known member
If the Lord "willed" that some would be used to make His power known then it would make no sense that He "endured with much longsuffering" toward those vessels.

Let us look what is said here:

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Ro.1:19-20).​

Paul is saying that the people who do not believe in God are "without excuse." But if the Lord willed that they would deny the existence of God then they would have a very good excuse.

They could say that the Lord willed that I will not believe in God and who am I that can go against His will? Therefore, the unbelievers would have a very good excuse for not believing in God.

Paul's words prove that your ideas are wrong because he says that the unbelievers are "without excuse"!


They are still without excuse. Their not believing in God is the result of their being vessels of God's Wrath fitted for destruction.

And according to God's law and justice they are still accountable to God for their unbelief because their sins are still charged against them, and the wages of sin is death Rom. 6:23.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
Okay....If only the Will of GOD is what GOD allows then it follows that since we have free will, GOD must allow it, and if GOD allows it them it is HIS will.

By the way; you make it seem like GOD wills the evil within existence as opposed to allowing it. That can't be right.

peace


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The Will of God is Supreme over all others's will.

God does whatever He pleases Psalm 115:3!
 

popsthebuilder

New member
No one is capable of choosing anything other than what God has Willed.

The Will of God is Supreme over all others' will Dan. 4:35.

God does whatever He pleases Psalm 115:3!
None of that negates the fact that we have free will by the leave of GOD, regardless of how many times you repeat otherwise.

How does one even get to a point where they think they have no will of there own? If you cannot percieve a difference in the will of GOD in your personal life, and your own will which you claim you don't have, then you are either perfect or exceedingly lost. Either way, I humbly and sincerely hope the light of GOD guides you, and all of us. May the teachings and example of the Christ guide us in all loving kindness and reciprocal giving to all in need without discrimination or anticipation of reward or return.

Can you really not discern a difference in your own will and the Will of GOD?

peace



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