Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[1Way]

Maybe you "think" you are, but I "am not" nicer than God

Maybe you "think" you are, but I "am not" nicer than God

godrulz - You said

It is not so much what you say, but how you say it. It comes across as a thinly veiled arrogance. I understand that Enyart's style is sometimes bombastic and cutting. This is inappropriate when dealing with fellow believers over controversial, non-essential issues.

I do not remotely care about Bob's personal style, I care about conforming my life to Jesus. Arrogant is a bit week, I'd say down right rude sometimes. And I am not that way when it comes to non-essentials, I'm that way when the stakes are high, like opposing a high handed sin, presuming that the truth of a matter, does not matter, or that twisting the truth is ok. etc. God is truth, we are to honor and love the truth, that is what God says characterizes those who humble themselves before God unto salvation. And from where I am standing, such things are eternally important and worthy of escalating opposition for the sake of all that is good and right and holy.

Unless you have some specific example of me doing wrong, I will turn your general subjective comment upon yourself. You have a habit of ignoring and disrespecting the truth of a matter, like now, instead of establishing the truth of the matter, you hold in the highest degree, your own personal subjective opinion, when you have every opportunity to do the opposite. This may be viewed as a desire to cause strife and contention, but I wouldn't go that far with you, because you mix your subjectivity with a certain amount of desire to share and learn. And, upon occasion, you actually thank me even when I am harsh with you, and in so doing, you have even if rarely, extended a mature and humble spirit towards the correction that we trust was based in God by His word/teachings.

This is not about the whole nicer than God issue, one that you and I don't agree on, so if you will be so kind as to allow my message to be what it is, and deal with it instead of our differences of opinion about Christian morality, perhaps we'll be fine. Until you are ready to apologetically deal with whatever issue, your claims and judgments remain somewhat subjective and unsubstantiated, even though I'd like nothing better than to go over whatever contentions you have with me example by example to establish the truth of the matter instead of resting upon a disgruntled personal opinion.

Please do not punch me in the gut.

I have (Christ's) love for you, ,,,

I stand in the way of error and contradiction and a demonstrative steadfast focus off of Christ and on man, precisely because I care for you, not otherwise. And same with any other time I harshly oppose someone, it is the many false teachings that people keep defending that are destructive, not the truth and a focus on God and His word. If my treatment of you makes you feel as deeply and personally as I think you have conveyed, then ,,, good, ,,, I am doing what I intended on doing. You see, I want to redeem the time, as we all know, we may not have another tomorrow, so I focus on eternal truth as though it's the last thing I will ever say before I get to heaven. That way you will have the best testimony I have to offer towards faith in God and His word, and I will have a good conscience knowing that I did not smooth over the truth in hopes of slowly and gently honoring and exhorting in truth by the spirit of God. Because we may not have another chance to do this, or more likely, someone else who is just visiting this site will not take the time to follow our discussion to it's conclusion. So, I don't want you or anyone else feeling good about themselves while destructive ideas are flowing freely in you and are being promoted to others as well.

Don't disconnect the bad feeling (guilt from being wrong) from the truthful message that condemned you for being in the wrong in the first place. It is so common for a protagonist like yourself to wait long after something offensive happens to say something like: you know, generally speaking, you are too harsh and mean to me and others, I am not mentioning any particular examples so that you could defend your self even if you wanted to, I don't want to focus on that truth in reality stuff, I just want to complain and make you look like the bad guy so that perhaps then I will feel better about myself.

I never judged against you without a good reason and without your best interests in mind and without God's direction/teaching. And sure I am not perfect and get some things wrong, but you should be able to see that my goal is not to harm you, but to aid and build you up according to God and His word.


====================================

Freelight - Maybe that means all that to you, but it does not mean all that to me. So by your own unreasonable argumentation, you self refute. See what subjectivism gets you? Standing on the truth of a matter is far more satisfying, if you have that much room in your heart. More to the point. Its not all about searching and sharing, God's word, which is absolute eternal truth, and is the only righteous way of life and the only way to life eternal, God's word condemns your notion of constant searching and learning and sharing. You are supposed to conclude and stand on the firm unchanging foundation of the truth, the rock of offense, and if you don't not accept the exclusivity of God and His word, then you are plainly wrought in error and ungodliness.

You wouldn't even stand corrected let alone apologize for errently charging

For those who cannot see the essential truth that THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.....then what can be said about them? Instead they will resort to intellectual trifles...and straining at gnats in the meantime oblivious to the obvious truths as presented by their fellows.

Unless your way of standing corrected and apologizing for your false accusation is by replying to my correction by saying, "understood". Well understand this, I hear and comprehend you too, but I don't hear you admit that you treated me wrongly, nor that you take back your false accusation which is what you should do when exposed for doing wrong.

The absolute truth of the matter is, the letter kills is an unambiguous reference to God's law/commandments that He gave to Israel and is the most striking covenantal aspect in their relationship with God. I agree that God has superseding commandments given to Paul for this superseding dispensation of grace, but that is not what we are talking about. The truth is, the letter kills means that in this dispensation, the covenantal law of God (obey my laws and you shall live...) is what kills and condemns. There is NO difference in trusting God and in trusting God's word. But I've argued and demonstrated and explained all that, so futility rains while the truth of the matter is far from you. Again, if you want to make some other reference to doing wrong, that is perfectly fine, but don't misrepresent God and His word as you keep doing.

 

[freelight]

time to be spiritual.......

time to be spiritual.......

My comments below - just follow the crows - each response is one paragraph only.

Originally posted by 1Way


Freelight - Maybe that means all that to you, but it does not mean all that to me. So by your own unreasonable argumentation, you self refute. See what subjectivism gets you? Standing on the truth of a matter is far more satisfying, if you have that much room in your heart. More to the point. Its not all about searching and sharing, God's word, which is absolute eternal truth, and is the only righteous way of life and the only way to life eternal, God's word condemns your notion of constant searching and learning and sharing.


:crow: )============Hi 1Way,..............Jesus taught his disciples to always ask, seek and knock - for only those who do...will keep receiving, finding and having the doors open to them. Of course those who hold a closed system and narrowed view of 'Gods word'(theology) will not like that idea. Those who know the progressive nature of revelation understand this concept. Also,....only God knows each heart.....and judges each accordingly.


You are supposed to conclude and stand on the firm unchanging foundation of the truth, the rock of offense, and if you don't not accept the exclusivity of God and His word, then you are plainly wrought in error and ungodliness.

You wouldn't even stand corrected let alone apologize for errently charging

quote:
"For those who cannot see the essential truth that THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.....then what can be said about them? Instead they will resort to intellectual trifles...and straining at gnats in the meantime oblivious to the obvious truths as presented by their fellows."

Unless your way of standing corrected and apologizing for your false accusation is by replying to my correction by saying, "understood". Well understand this, I hear and comprehend you too, but I don't hear you admit that you treated me wrongly, nor that you take back your false accusation which is what you should do when exposed for doing wrong.


:crow: )============= The above was simply a generalized statement that you took personally....not an accusation as you insinuate. I will not apologize for I have done nothing wrong. I will not nit-pick over what 'letter' means as we have covered that issue and our understandings on it. Each are entitled to their view. I merely shared my perspective on it....and this was criticized by you. I saw the continuing on of this point kinda redundant......in light of the essential emphasis of my commentaries....which are that the Spirit gives LIFE. Those who are spiritual would rejoice in this fact/reality of life in the Spirit....and would not be so prone to go on about a doctrinal issue which in my opinion is secondary to this and more or less an 'intellectual trifle'. I do not get so caught up in the correctness or orthodoxy of a rigid doctrinal/theological system which claims to be 'Gods word' on the matter....and all else are 'error' and 'ungodliness'. Those with a higher perspective might call this folly....and religious ignorance....disguised by zeal.



The absolute truth of the matter is, the letter kills is an unambiguous reference to God's law/commandments that He gave to Israel and is the most striking covenantal aspect in their relationship with God. I agree that God has superseding commandments given to Paul for this superseding dispensation of grace, but that is not what we are talking about. The truth is, the letter kills means that in this dispensation, the covenantal law of God (obey my laws and you shall live...) is what kills and condemns. There is NO difference in trusting God and in trusting God's word. But I've argued and demonstrated and explained all that, so futility rains while the truth of the matter is far from you. Again, if you want to make some other reference to doing wrong, that is perfectly fine, but don't misrepresent God and His word as you keep doing.



:crow: )=========== God remains true to His native and divine Presence amid all the theological ventures of Man. God and his logos is only misrepresented by those who are unspiritual and cling to their interpretations of scripture over spritual wisdom and understanding. Only those who are led of the Spirit....think and act as sons of God.

 

[1Way]

NOTICE -- This is an updated and improved post, my internet connection is giving me fits, so I apologize for the mistake and delay in correcting my partial post. Please re-read this post to get back up to speed with what I am saying. Thanks.

So you continue to set the authority of the Spirit over and against the word of God.

You said

God and his logos is only misrepresented by those who are unspiritual and cling to their interpretations of scripture over spritual wisdom and understanding.

Here is my version which does not contrast God's spirit and God's word, but rather unifies them.

"God and his logos is only misrepresented by those who are unspiritual or untruthful, they cling to their interpretations of scripture over and against spritual wisdom and truth of the matter."

Your idea is that as long as your spiritual your all right, mishandling the truth is not as important as mishandling the Spirit. You could not be more wrong. If you mishandle God's word, then you mishandle God, and visa versa.

Jesus said, you are of your father the devil, because you have no room in your hearts for the spirit, or wasn't it for my word? It's God's word, that is what Jesus said determines if you are of God or not. He equated the truth from God, with God Himself! This equation of the truth with God is rampant throughout scripture, even God's name is The Word, and The Truth just to point out how fully and boldy God denies your view.

As to seeking and learning, I did leave that issue rather wide open and should have been more careful and narrow minded. This is what prompted me to respond as I did.

Freelight - Excuse me, but we did not disagree about the Spirit giving life bit, we disagreed about what "the letter kills" means. You ,,, ,,, person.

)=========== Hi 1Way,..........understood. It should be becoming obvious that I hold to a more metaphysically broad understanding of certain concepts found in scripture and other inspired writings....which I share freely - I realize sometimes others come from different perspectives and this is fine - its all about exploration and sharing these understandings with one another.

I just shared the truth of the matter, even though you were propagating a lie about me not understanding the concept that the Spirit gives life. I did not make your accusation personally against me, you did. And it is yet another lie for you to suggest that you did not intend that remark to be understood against me. But forget that, you are not sorry and I can't make you treat me with honesty and respect. Even if you somewhat would like to retract your charges against me, what I said represented the truth of the matter, namely that we disagreed about what the Letter kills means, and that we agreed!!! on what "the Spirit gives life" means. So if you agree that that is the case, then you had no business retorting as you did, and so I just pointed that out and hoped for better from you.

Back to my point, I was presenting cold hard truth, the truth in reality, our disagreement was NOT about the Spirit gives life, it was about the letter kills, but you don't seem to accept that perspective very much, you like to avoid the clarity that only standing on the truth avails. You like a more broad approach, a metaphysically broader understanding of certain concepts (retranslated, a different understanding or approach to spiritual truth) which are found in scripture AND as you suggest, other INSPIRED writings... which is a direct attack on the authority and exclusivity of scripture, and was why I pointed out the exclusivity of God's eternal truth, yet you have only failed to respond to that issue. So you are basically attacking absolute and/or eternal truth, suggesting a broader metaphysic and other inspired writings beyond scripture, and these ideas you share freely, (the old open minded bit, trash in trash out, truth in truth out), willingly accepting different perspectives (but not mine you don't, not Christ's you don't, you say you must have more than the scriptures, but God condemns such a thought as holding any other authority against God's word). So different perspectives are not fine, you do not accept different perspectives like you say you do, you almost constantly reject mine and now I see you reject God's exclisivist teachings as well, at least I'm honest and say that I reject most perspectives and only accept the truth of a matter and that God's word is the final authority, scripture that is, not otherwise.

You go on to say that it's all about exploring and sharing these understandings with each other. And given my attempt at establishing the truth of the matter, and your refusal to acknowledge the truth of the matter, and lifting up false claims that are outside of scripture and placing them in line with scripture, you are ever searching and seeking and exploring and sharing but not limiting your faith to the authority and sufficiency and exclusivity of scripture, all of which seems very much like what God condemns as follows.

2 Timothy 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And since you are seeking the truth from other places besides God's word and esteeming these other so called inspired writings on the same level and authority as God's word, i.e. the letter may be God's Mosaic law, and it may also be other laws which meaning is taught in other writings. You will NEVER stand firmly on the truth with that sort of nonsense, you will ever be searching and never able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH. And for everyone's benefit, here is Jesus demonstrating my point more eloquently than I.

John 8:37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[12] your father."

39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."

Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father."

Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God."

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Here is another example of you dealing wrongly with the truth. You said

I share that the letter is death only when it has no spirit-life vitality. I have read the word 'letter' as being not only the Law(s) of Moses....but any written or inscribed words which are intended to be laws(principles) of God to man.

The truth in reality is that we are not dealing about wether or not you read something else somewhere else, the truth of the matter is that we were talking about the truth that was expressed in God's word concerning what He meant when He said that the letter kills. You plainly referenced God's word when you said that the spirit gives life, but the letter kills, but then when I exposed how you were wrong about what that means, you now say that you are actually referring to something else. You are one unstable truth opposing unit.

You are perverse and do not deal uprightly with the truth, you even deny the truth and opt for a broader journey, I trust and expose the truth, and reject me ways even though you say that you are accepting of any "perspective", you mean any but "the" one way "the" one truth "the" one life in Christ Jesus and the one word of life, the one word of God, the holy scriptures which are able to make one wise unto salvation (2Tim 3:15), that perspective is just a bit too confining and exclusivistic for you, you need a broader metaphysic, a more all inclusive mind set, and wider arena for spiritual truth.

So which is it? Christ and His word only? Or is that not suitable or comprehensive or satisfying enough for you?

 

[freelight]

abiding Life......

abiding Life......

Originally posted by 1Way

So you continue to set the authority of the Spirit over and against the word of God.

)=============== 1 Way,............The Spirit of God is Life. The Spirit of God is what is to be followed - the Mind of God. Of course.....any words or logos that is God-inspired....will be in accord with the Spirit. I have never denied the word or logos of God...for such is essential for communicating the Mind of God to us. Again we go back to ' the letter kills, the Spirit gives Life.' A mere book, bible(collection of books), writings, codes, letters, alphabet, symbols, script, etc.....have no power in and of themselves to give LIFE! There are merely containers, pointers, symbols to convey thoughts, images, meanings, ideas unto our consciousness....that we may receive their impressions and interpret them thereby. Your bible cannot save you. Sure....books, writings may have been inspired by God and codified and heralded as 'Gods word' - good and well. If you have inspired writings, books, scriptures....this does not give you salvation. Only by receiving the words, logos of the SPIRIT(God) can they be QUICKENED to you as LIFE....thru the written codes or otherwise. Sure, the logos and mind of God is expressed thru scripture...........but until God makes these words alive in your consciousness.....and impresses them upon the tablets of your heart.....they are mere intellection. With this....we see varying levels of inspiration and enlightenment within the dynamic of such an exchange.

God is LIFE....and those abiding in GOD....have Life NOW.


paul

 

[1Way]

You can stand corrected, that IS an option, the truth is what sets us free, not error

You can stand corrected, that IS an option, the truth is what sets us free, not error

God is true, His name is "The" Word, not the Words in different writings here and there, He is "the" way, "the" TRUTH, and "the" life, He is not the truths as ascribed by various systems of belief, He is not just the life as you keep focusing on to promote your perspective and demote mine.

• Do you affirm that Jesus Christ is "the only" way to God,
  [*]that He and His teachings are what constitute the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal, and no other,
  [*]and that by no other name (that can be named) can man be saved?
  [*]Do you hold any other writing at the same level of authority as the holy scriptures (meaning the protestant bible as generally accepted in the Christian churches, i.e. not the JW's New World translation, or the book of Mormon or the Koran or any other so called "inspired spiritual" writing)?

Freelight - Please deal with my post and stop the ambiguity, you are not moving towards clarity, you are avoiding the reason we are discussing things. You DID NOT say what you are now saying, here is a rundown about what we have been talking about. If I wanted to hear your freeform monologue about your strange beliefs, it would be only after several million years in the next life and I have already pondered the theory of relativity as it applies to time/space travel, only after that would I possibly be interested. Here is the contextual development of our discussion, please do not stray.

you quoted God's word,
I corrected your wrong understanding which was somewhat shrewd of me to catch your mistaken "understanding", seeing how you did not share it at that time, but your contextual use was clear enough for me
you then went about defending your errant view and since then you have never dealt uprightly with that matter of truth
You then made matters worse by saying that actually you read it elsewhere other than God's word that the letter kills so that the letter kills can mean what God's word says it means, and it can mean what God's word does not say it means, which is you lifting some other authority on the same level as God's word in order to maintain your view that the letter kills can mean something other than what God says it means.

Now you say

I have never denied the word or logos of God...for such is essential for communicating the Mind of God to us.

I just showed you how you denied God and His word by superseding His word with your own manmade authority in a vain attempt at correcting or modifying scripture. And I objected when you did the in the first place, and I continue to do so now. You plainly said that God inspired other writings other than the scriptures, and even if you didn't say that much, you uses another authority other than the bible to augment what the bible says by adding your point that the letter kills means more than just the Mosaic law.

My best advise to you is to read God's word with an ear towards comprehension, and if you still come away thinking that there are other writings that you can use on the same level or to add to the teachings of the scriptures, then you are one deluded and truth opposing fool.

God's word, which is meaningful and is the way of life eternal, is TRUE, it is not just ink and paper, and it does have the power to convert the soul upon hearing and believing. God does not teach that a special unction is required to understand and place faith in His truth, His method is hearing (receiving) and believing (trusting). When people preach the gospel which is the power unto salvation, they do not deliver God to people, they deliver the truth about Him, and it is that truth that can cut asunder to the heart and soul that ends up setting us free, never the lie, always the truth. God uses the things that are not, to bring to naught the things that are, God saves people by faith, and faith is applied conceptually, and sure, the object of our faith is in God, but God is the gift that we get upon being saved, He is not the message which converts the soul, His truth about Him is the message by the hearing and believing that one may become saved, and then after faith comes, as a part of salvation, we receive the HS, but remember, that was not true for many thousands of years! Man used to be saved without God living in them, so we are special in that regard.

God is not truth itself, truth is a concept, God is a living being, but the truth about God according to the gospel unto salvation has the power to convert and thus save the sole, not apart from God, but not apart from the truth about God either. The truth, and God are in no way in competition for authority, and words on paper is not the intent of what scripture means! It's the meaning that the words convey, my paper and leather bible, can not save me, but the message and way and power unto eternal life is in the word of God. Your arguments are like a white washed tomb, on the superficial appearance, it looks ok, but concretely it is full of dead man's bones, because you constantly demote or even doubt the authority of scripture, like when you tried to correct it with another authority that you would not name for some probably shameful reason.

 

[godrulz]

1Way:

Thank you for speaking into my life and sharing yours with others.

I do not know your heart and am not your Judge, so I do not presume to be accurate in all my ideas.

There is a way to effectively communicate so the recipient will receive rebuke or truth. Argumentum ad hominem or name-calling is not worthy of fellow believers who are adults in dialogue about Open Theism issues, for example.

I have a righteous indignation with those who deny the Deity of Christ or propagate Mormonism, etc. here. A harsher tone may be more appropriate for those with a hard heart or deceptive spirit.

For those of us with a love for truth, Christ, and His church a less condescending tone would be appreciated.

We all have different personality types, but they should be tempered by the Spirit and character of Christ rather than our flesh or ego.

Why not attack and oppose the false ideas, rather than slander people's intelligence and motives (which you cannot accurately assess on the internet)?

Back to the issues at hand and I will :shut:

 

[freelight]

amazing persistence.....

amazing persistence.....

Dear 1Way,

As I have read your concentrated efforts to make your point while assuming that I have made some effort to demote your view(which is not the case)....I am finding this entertaining. This is not about 'you' or 'me'....but the essence of true understanding of spiritual liberty....which I have shared amply about - this liberty being IN the Spirit of the Lord.

I have already shared and expounded on that only the Spirit gives life as is supported by the scritpures and spiritual logic. THE SPIRIT OF GOD GIVES LIFE. The repeating of this essential truth.....may only bear fruit for those who can spiritually apprehend.



paul


:crow:

 

[1Way]

Well Freelight, if you are right and God is with you, then please answer the following, after all, God teaches us to give the reasons for the hope that we have ...

• Do you affirm that Jesus Christ is "the only" way to God,
• that He and His teachings are what constitute the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal, and no other,
• and that by no other name (that can be named) can man be saved?
• Do you hold any other writing at the same level of authority as the holy scriptures (meaning the protestant bible as generally accepted in the Christian churches, i.e. not the JW's New World translation, or the book of Mormon or the Koran or any other so called "inspired spiritual" writing)?

Perfect love casts out all fear, so don't be afraid of some words on your computer monitor, they will not send you to hell. Please, tell the truth about your faith by answering those simple questions.

 

[godrulz]

I would add which Christ do you believe in? There are counterfeit Christs who are not the one revealed in Scripture. He is Almighty God, not a creature or mere teacher.

 

[freelight]

going for the pin.......

going for the pin.......

1Way asks -

quote:

Do you affirm that Jesus Christ is "the only" way to God,

that He and His teachings are what constitute the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal, and no other,

and that by no other name (that can be named) can man be saved?



:crow: )============= He claimed to be 'the' Way (to the Father).


Do you hold any other writing at the same level of authority as the holy scriptures (meaning the protestant bible as generally accepted in the Christian churches, i.e. not the JW's New World translation, or the book of Mormon or the Koran or any other so called "inspired spiritual" writing)?



:crow: )============== the protestant Bible as now compiled claims its own level of authority and such is held more or less by her endorsers. I do hold other inspired writings as being supplemental to the Bible and am not limited to that which has been canonized by the protestants.


Perfect love casts out all fear, so don't be afraid of some words on your computer monitor, they will not send you to hell. Please, tell the truth about your faith by answering those simple questions.


:crow: )============why should I be afraid? I felt no need to answer your 'set up' questions per my last post.....knowing well what your answers and reactions are going to be. Nevertheless......here you go.




paul

 

[1Way]

judge rightly and because of your love, not inspite of it

judge rightly and because of your love, not inspite of it

godrulz - You said

1Way:

Thank you for speaking into my life and sharing yours with others.

(1) I do not know your heart and am not your Judge, so I do not presume to be accurate in all my ideas.

(2) There is a way to effectively communicate so the recipient will receive rebuke or truth. (3) Argumentum ad hominem or name-calling is not worthy of fellow believers who are adults in dialogue about Open Theism issues, for example.

(4) I have a righteous indignation with those who deny the Deity of Christ or propagate Mormonism, etc. here. A harsher tone may be more appropriate for those with a hard heart or deceptive spirit.

(5) For those of us with a love for truth, Christ, and His church a less condescending tone would be appreciated.

(6) We all have different personality types, but they should be tempered by the Spirit and character of Christ rather than our flesh or ego.

(7) Why not attack and oppose the false ideas, rather than slander people's intelligence and motives (8) (which you cannot accurately assess on the internet)?

Back to the issues at hand and I will :shut:

(1) God teaches that you should know a man's heart by what comes out of it. God says that you should judge all things. It is good to be humble and admit your faults, but this is a bit much, you have given me this same argument for months now, yet, when you finally build up the nerve, you presume a very great deal in your harsh judgments against me. If you never really stand corrected in these faults, then I suppose that the truth of the matter is that your now less harsh words are not as meaningful as your actions/deeds.

(2) God does not usually teach such niceties, it's usually just do right and risk the consequences, the impetus for a right response is the more important focus. Jesus did not exemplify this nicer than God idea, He was hotly rejected by the vast majority even though He arguably was smarter and wiser than me. Maybe you think that when Jesus made people want to kill him by speaking the truth in love, you imagine that he was really a nice guy who never offended anyone, as though killing a miracle worker is top priority for most of God's chosen people. Come on godrulz, Jesus was intensely rude and harsh, Paul the same, the great men of God, the same! Especially in the face of wickedness and presumptuous sin.

(3) Right, until doing things that the Lord HATES, like causing unnecessary strife, a false witness (slander), etc. etc. etc., rescue your love from sinful hypocrisy, abhor that which is evil and stop being nicer than God, its wrong on so many levels including being impossible anyway. The attempt at being nicer than God is really politically correct selfishness and self righteousness, it's the desire to be accepted and to be viewed as right or authoritative. Its good to be accepted and authoritative, but not while trying to be nicer than God

(4) Wow, so you practically have to be a heretic to get some harshness out of you, well, actually that is not true, you just got done chewing me a new one, and I don't think you consider me a heretic or such, you mostly just don't like my style. So add it's ok to be rudely harsh if you don't like their style.

(5) Ah, yes, but then again, so would the devil. He would just love it if we would all feel less bothered by the more "trivial" yet numerous sins in our lives. Maybe we should all gain a sense of brotherly appreciation and acceptance even when we find false teachings and error, as long as it's nothing like outright heresy, we should rather wink as the flood of more common and less gross sins slowly but surely destroy ourselves and those around us. Also, lets us forget altogether, that the less severe and wicked sins have a flip side, they usually are that much easier to avoid and stand corrected once pointed out. If you were to say confront someone who molests children, then that would be a very complex and time consuming deprogramming effort, but if it's just a touch of selfishness or pride, there is not much to do other than to point it out and be done with it. Unless the offender is not repentant, then the severity grows in part because the ease of correction amplifies the fact that they did not repent when everyone knows they should. Such a blatant rebellion is perhaps not the most wicked sort of sin, but it may represent pure pride and self righteousness, and those are two of the most self deluding of sins. If you let them foster in your life, just about any sin can grow protected by these so called not so gross, not so heretical sins.

Sin is destructive, and if you care about righteousness and life, oppose sin even if you have to sacrifice some popularity. To not oppose sin, in essence, is sin itself. Stop trying to be nicer than God.

(6) Good point, i.e. don't be nicer than God, and keep your love from hypocrisy, abhor that with is a higher up heresy, opps, I think it actually said, all that is evil. Not most evil, not the most evil things, not just the clearly evil things, it's, that which is evil. Don't try to be nicer than God. Sin and evil is an equal opportunity destroyer. Love everyone without hypocrisy and sin.

(7) LOL, that is funny. I do, but after an offense/sin happens, it would be unloving for me to be nicer than God, so I address the error. You are confusing, you say you should not be my judge, you don't know my heart, yet when you do judge me, its like all hell breaks loose and judgment and condemnation becomes you. Perhaps you should stive for more of a balance there.

(8) Wow, that is confusing, are you telling me that you seriously and harshly judged me as you did,,, in ignorance? Of course not, you know my heart and what sort of man I am, somewhere else you just judged Z Man as a save soul. God's word says that as a man speaks, so is he, and from the abundance of the heart a man speaks, and a good man brings forth good things, and an evil man evil things. The bible teachings that you were taught since you were probably a little kid, tell you over and over and over and over again to judge people and how to do it rightly. The internet may be one of the best places to judge someone. People love to hide behind their social skills, they use laughter and subtle affirmations to gain favor in others. But on the internet, espeically in these proving grounds, practically all you have is people's hearts of faith being pored out for everyone to examine. Here's a good rule of thumb that should help you with all this. Most people speak their minds, some hide their heart better than others, but sooner or later, the heart is revealed by our communicated thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong and people are more deceptive and dishonest than that, but I doubt it. Yes man is sinful and unstable, but he also like to affirm what is in his inner man, evil people like to promote their evil and to have it accepted, same with the righteous, they like to promote righteousness and to have it accepted. So the general idea is that the internet, especialy on a theology forum, is a particularly good place to get to know people. Ever tried Paltalk? They have Christian rooms and talk about an intense way to deal with issues of faith. The personal side of voice chat is more highlighted while the intellectual side is somewhat lessoned.

I wouldn't have half the room to judge against you, if you only were not a mild hypocrite. If you only consistently taught that it's ok to judge all evil, then perhaps most of this issue would be settled.

So from my perspective your temper tantrum was brought about by you "trying to be" nicer than God as well as me "not being" nicer than God. Such combinations naturally produce interpersonal problems sooner or later. Live and learn.

 

[1Way]

freelight - You said

Originally posted by freelight

1Way asks -

quote:

Do you affirm that Jesus Christ is "the only" way to God,

that He and His teachings are what constitute the only way, the only truth and the only life eternal, and no other,

and that by no other name (that can be named) can man be saved?



:crow: )============= He claimed to be 'the' Way (to the Father).

That is not the question, I am asking you what you affirm as true or not. Anyone can make a claim, but only you can decide what to trust and believe. Please answer the question.

Do you hold any other writing at the same level of authority as the holy scriptures (meaning the protestant bible as generally accepted in the Christian churches, i.e. not the JW's New World translation, or the book of Mormon or the Koran or any other so called "inspired spiritual" writing)?


:crow: )============== the protestant Bible as now compiled claims its own level of authority and such is held more or less by her endorsers. I do hold other inspired writings as being supplemental to the Bible and am not limited to that which has been canonized by the protestants.

Care to dare to share? What other writings do you trust as spiritual truth on the same level as God's word? Is there a higher writen authority than the scriptures?


Perfect love casts out all fear, so don't be afraid of some words on your computer monitor, they will not send you to hell. Please, tell the truth about your faith by answering those simple questions.


:crow: )============why should I be afraid? I felt no need to answer your 'set up' questions per my last post.....knowing well what your answers and reactions are going to be. Nevertheless......here you go.

I don't know why you tend to hide the truth of your beliefs, perhaps you are somewhat ashamed of them, who knows. The expressions of our faith that we are dealing with here and now are at the heart of the very issues of our eternal life and well being? I mean, if you are right or if you are wrong, heaven and hell may weigh in the balance, or at the least eternal rewards and consequences of some sort. These letters and words will not condemn you, or acquit you, but the ideas that they represent will condemn or acquit you. Unless you are just being dishonest about everything, which does not seem reasonable to me, I trust you are speaking your mind and from your heart.


paul

 

[godrulz]

I did not expect a diatribe and dissection from a simple exhortation. Perhaps you need a life.

Jesus had authority and perfection to rebuke the hard-hearted with judgment. To the broken and hurting He demonstrated love and mercy. Yes, we do have authority as believers, but watch the presumption. The believers here need encouraging and not the same attitude as the unbelievers. Why drive the sincerely searching away by rudeness equating your spiritual maturity with Jesus and Paul? Jesus was a master communicator. You come across as a mix of flesh and spirit (as I do, no doubt). Effective communication principles are not antithetical to biblical principles.

I can imagine that you might be a brutal shepherd/pastor brow beating the immature sheep in the name of self-righteousness. Love and tenderness are appropriate for the sincerely searching who do not have the intellectual prowess that you do. Save the rhetoric for the mockers and deceivers.

Once again, time for me to:shut:

 

[freelight]

opening the soul........

opening the soul........

1Way writes:

That is not the question, I am asking you what you affirm as true or not. Anyone can make a claim, but only you can decide what to trust and believe. Please answer the question.



oly: )============ Well, yes - of course my upbringing, training, affiliations, mentoring have all been Christ-centered (of varing traditions). I have personally found Christ to be the way, truth and life - the light of the world....the quickening Spirit - the divine Logos - the Anointed One. My perception of the Christ may be of wider expansions than some orthodox believers....but to each his own theosophy. Christ in us the hope of glory...shall awaken in us by His grace in due time - the Daystar.


1Way :

Care to dare to share? What other writings do you trust as spiritual truth on the same level as God's word? Is there a higher writen authority than the scriptures?


oly: )========== I said some writings I hold as 'suplemental' - they do not necessarily 'supplant' the Bible. I find the Apocrypha, intertestamental books, lost books of the Bible, dead sea scrolls material, some gnostic texts and other more modern day revelations as part of the supplementation to ones spiritual journey and soul-knowledge. I do have a website which is only a foretaste of my explorations - there are some links, articles and a section on mormonism - this may give you a glimpse of my 'theology' - I am evolving and shall be adding more as the commentaries come.

www.freelightexpress.com

*Or check bottom of post....where the posters web address is accessible.




1Way:

I don't know why you tend to hide the truth of your beliefs, perhaps you are somewhat ashamed of them, who knows. The expressions of our faith that we are dealing with here and now are at the heart of the very issues of our eternal life and well being? I mean, if you are right or if you are wrong, heaven and hell may weigh in the balance, or at the least eternal rewards and consequences of some sort. These letters and words will not condemn you, or acquit you, but the ideas that they represent will condemn or acquit you. Unless you are just being dishonest about everything, which does not seem reasonable to me, I trust you are speaking your mind and from your heart.


oly: )=========== I have hidden nothing not relative to the specifics of our dialogue...and am not ashamed for being true to the revelations and insights given me by Spirit. Again, it is not a matter of if I'm right or If I'm wrong - or if I'm going to hell or heaven - these are petty religionist terms for the most part - my sharings here are explorations and tended for expansion of consciousness - the progression of light. Our previous and current discussions so far.....are the sharing of ideas and interpretations and it would behoove each to try and see the perspectives and viewpoints of the others....to encourage a fruitful dialogue - one that tends towards cooperation and greater understanding. I have learned and gleaned from many sources, teachers and teachings....while the Bible and my judeo-christian heritage has served as the premise and kernel of my own spiritual awakeneing. I am obviously however not bound by a narrow interpretation of 'Gods word' as some die-hard fundamentalists and evangelical zealots define such. My freedom and liberty of soul and spirit extends beyond such narrow definitions. It all comes back to my emphasis shared thru-out...that Jesus taught his disciples that the Spirit of truth would lead, guide and teach them - ALL TRUTH. Somehow some dont understand this emphasis and importance , of following the Spirit of truth, which DOES NOT negate or disqualify the written word - but does imply the the written word be realized, senses, understood and illumined by/thru the Spirit. The Spirit of truth alone can guide one into the essence of truth that any text or other medium may provide for our souls enlightenment and nourishment - still....it is the Spirit of God...that is revealing to us the Mind of God....within letters or without letters. God who is Light...is ever unfolding His light in us...as we open to His Light...and allow the Christ to shine within us. This is the anointing of truth....that teaches us all things - things that man cannot divulge to the innermost places of the soul. This is the gnosis that leads the way towards communion and at-one-ment with the Father. This is the inspiration and guidance of the divine Law Supreme which is Love...which fulfills ALL.


shalom,


paul

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by godrulz to 1way

I did not expect a diatribe and dissection from a simple exhortation. Perhaps you need a life.

That's funny. 1Way is simply a babe in Christ still needing milk.

I can imagine that you might be a brutal shepherd/pastor brow beating the immature sheep in the name of self-righteousness. Love and tenderness are appropriate for the sincerely searching who do not have the intellectual prowess that you do. Save the rhetoric for the mockers and deceivers.

1Way could learn much from the way you have handled these issues, my friend. :thumb:

 

[1Way]

Arguments vrs claims, disagreements vrs refutations

Arguments vrs claims, disagreements vrs refutations

Freak and all interested parties

This is a repost from post 118, to confront Freak with the truth of the matter. As to godrulz, I’ve been disappointed in him for a near complete lack of biblical authority and teachings for his view. Not that he hasn’t presented any, but that in light of the bible arguments I’ve given him about miracles and also about not being nicer than God, he seems for the most part, aversive to them. Godrulz has not been exemplary, but if that is true, then you are far worse off. But, life remains there’s still hope, so play hide and seek, or deal with Gods’ word that denies your view that miracles tend to produce faith.

Ok, gig's up, I'm quite satisfied after attempt after repeated umpteen attempt to get Freak to put up an argument "against at least one of Bob Enart's teachings". Again, this is NOT about disagreeing with conclusions or claims, this was supposed to be about Freak exposing the error of what Bob actually teaches (esp. from The Plot) and he never gave one single example nor argument against Bob's "teaching", he just demonstrated that he disagrees with Bob, like as though we did not already know that.


Here's some examples of disagreeing with a claim and rebutting an argument


disagreeing with a claim


Bob says A is true

Freak says A is not true, I think B is true, examine B is taught here and here and here in the bible, therefore A is not true.


Using the above method would not likely settle or rebut anything, unless the opponent would just show up and admit he was wrong. And I do admit that sometimes you can refute A by simply establishing B, but then usually such occasions would happen where A and B are more simple issues where especially A is not accompanied with multiple or strong support arguments. Normally speaking, a teaching is strongly connected to it's support arguments so you have to deal with them in order to get anywhere.



rebutting a teaching

Bob says A is true
Freak says wrong, B is true
Freak rebuts Bob by first systematically and accurately exposing whatever arguments Bob has in support for his claim, for example.
Freak says
Bob says that A is true because of argument A1, A2, and A3, and also Bob claims that A4 further demonstrates why A is true although in a more round about way, but helps round out the teaching to demonstrate even more biblical consistency. He would state A1 accurately and not violate it's context, and then proceed to expose it's weakness or error or falsehood or mistake, whatever. Then same with A2 thru A4 and so on. If you NEVER do that, then we would never know what is wrong with what Bob "actually" teaches. Foundational issues matter.



Freak errors from not respecting the bible on many fronts, not the least of which is how to treat one another when we have disagreements.



When it's an important and disputed matter, God teaches the establishment of the truth by multiple or corroborating witnesses. This support the whole idea that the truth is whole and not partial. For example, while Freak has said his side of the issue, that does not mean he has established the truth of the matter, even though he as presented more than one support for his views. When the truth surfaces even in the presence of your advisory/opponent, then the matter is at least more likely to have been established in truth and certainly not according to a personal (one sided) agenda.

• De 19:15 "One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.
  
  Of course, you can not establish anything if you don't have an objective hearing of both or all sides of the issue, so necessarily you need understanding prior to judgment. And our Christian faith is one of a great amount of knowledge and understanding in the Lord, we should not fear having our faith cross examined, instead we should welcome it with an open readiness.
  
  Col 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,
  
  And when it comes to teaching learning and sharing our faith in God, we are taught to do so with humility and respect, demonstrating our claims and faith from scripture.
  
  1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Thanks for hanging in there everyone, Freaks behavior is repulsive enough for the next few months so I'll leave him alone to stew in his pot of gross. If godrulz or anyone else who would like to raise the level of discussion to something like what the topic supposedly entails, I'd be glad to have them fill in. But don't forget the two lessons Freak helped us learn, and that is there is a difference between disagreeing and rebutting, and there is a difference between a teaching and a claim or conclusion of a teaching.

Sorry to have to dwell on these elementary immature ideas, but if that is where it's at, then deal with it and move on.


Hello Chileice - Actually, Freak is opposing not very much, and exposing more of his ignorance and error than anything. Freak's main thing is the "contextual violence" game. But, as they say, I have only just begun. With few exceptions, it's been quite disapointing, especially the way Freak non-argues just about everything. Name it and claim it is such lazy foolishness, it's hard to enjoy. So far we've learned that a teaching is not the same as a claim/conclusion, and that rebutting a teaching is not the same as disagreeing with a teaching. But don't tell Freak that, he demonstrates the opposite with Freakish style and flare, and he thinks I'm a liar and not saved. What a deal.

 

[1Way]

This is from post 119, Enjoy! And note the roar of silence in refutation and error exposing. Nothing substantial has been presented yet, except for an associated (and noteworthy) issue that has not yet really been pursued (yet?), namely that aside from miracles tending to cause more unbelief, what about the issue of whether or not miracles are going on today or not.

Perhaps Enyart's most impressive argument is demonstrated by listing every miracle in the bible along with the effect that it had on people if discernable. That made for a huge collection, but the point of all that is remarkably simple, miracles do not tend to foster faith. It was a landslide, even with the most outragious and awesome miracles, the overwhelming response was more unbelief.

Bob also deals with the issue of what faith really is. And this point is also remarkably simple. Unlike some issues, faith has an exceptionally clear and quite comprehensive definition. Consider that faith is

• Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Now, imagine yourself doing something that you experience everyday, like geting in your car and driving to work, or opening up your mouth and eating your dinner, or sitting at your computer and dealing with the endless supply of godly issues from God's word at TOL. Now, during your experience, I mean right in the middle of you experiencing ,,, whatever, like lets say you are driving to work, and you are thinking about what I am saying right now, and you consider your car and the street below and that your mind is cognizant of what is going on, but guess what, none of this is a matter of faith! None, not at all, right?

But why? Because faith requires an element of something hoped for, not something you are seeing and experiencing. Do you have "faith" that your car is on the road and the road is on the ground and your tires are attached to your drivetrain and suspension? No, you consider these things as a matter of fact, not a matter of faith. Same with miracles, it takes exactly zero amount of faith to accurately experience a miracle. The fact of a miracle may be accurately known and reported from unbelieving cities and towns as the bible teaches! So attributing a miracle to God takes whatever observation skills that is common to man, primarily eyes and ears etc. it's not a matter of the heart. (Remember, we are talking about a genuine biblical miracle, not some well intended report that aunt Julie was blessed with a miracle when her tests came back negative.)



The message of a miracle. Miracles mostly do not say anything, they mostly just validate the messenger or peson or people of God, although often the miracle is used in conjunction with whatever dealings God is having with man and thus they may carry profound and clear implications. Now if miracles always taught a lesson on their own, then we might be able to expect faith being excercised in conforming our faith to that message. But, overall, the communication of a miracle is to say something on the order of, Moses is on God's side, and when God makes the most undeniable miracles, such factual knowledge pretty much eliminates exercizing faith, instead, it's obviously an excercise in eyesight and hearing and memory recall, etc.



What I think people who are saved today think is that it would be awesome to experience God's miracles, boy wouldn't that energize the body of Christ right out of their comfort zone and get people on fire for Christ!

I can relate to that desire, even today, I don't think I'll ever loose my fascination for the things of God and how awesome His mighty works can be. But that does not overturn the nature of miracles and faith as already mentioned. And frankly, the faith people would say would be amplified, would not be about the miracles, it would be about the God who does them, the being who remains not seen and who remains hoped for.



Lastly, but not least, God Himself teaches that even raising people from the dead will not cause faith in God. Faith in God is a much deeper and more personally relational issue which involves trust and respect and hope etc. Trust Jesus, don't go against Him.



Other than listing every single miracle and the results as testified in scripture, and giving Enyart's defintion of what a miracle actually is, I guess I've presented my understanding of the main arguements for why Bob Enyart concludes that as a general rule, miracles do not foster faith in God.

 

[1Way]

godrulz=nicer than God unless someone's not nicer than God, then he's meaner than God

godrulz=nicer than God unless someone's not nicer than God, then he's meaner than God

Godrulz – In post 125, you said

(1) Scripture simply does not explicitly teach that God is now confined to naturalistic methods because of a dispensation or 'unbelief' response. (2) Logically, if miracles lead to unbelief, so does preaching the Gospel! Miracles and preaching can also lead to faith and life (both/and, not either/or).

(3)I have listed verses that support the gifts of the Spirit and healing for the post-resurrection of Christ Church. This is not philosophical, it is the Word.

(1) Scripture does not explicitly teach how God could create the world when prior to the world, there was nothing (known) besides God to create from or with. Much the same with the Trinity, these sorts of issues must be carefully examined because they are not obvious nor explicitly stated. Yet the trinity is a righteous teaching despite the extra work required to understand it. Same with the shift demonstrated by God when He started the dispensation of Grace. As far as an unbelief reason for God no longer doing miracles, that is somewhat funny. No godrulz, we are not saying that it took God over 4,000 years to realize or teach that lesson. It’s a bible wide fact of reality, there seems to be no reason to teach anything else about miracles other than that they tend to not foster faith.

(2) I agree that like miracles, preaching and teaching also have a somewhat low percentage of success, but, preaching God’s word does invoke the issue of faith, and men preaching and evangelizing and teaching have undoubtedly been the number one method that God has used to produce new faith in God for the last 2,000 years. Man delivering the message of salvation to man is His number one evangelization method, and it is the most effective, despite the fact that most still go to hell, it sure is better than miracles in terms of winning people to God. Even God’s elect and chosen people, the vast majority of them went to hell and I am sure no other nation had nearly as much exposure to God and His miracles than them.

(3) The fact that miracles happened after the resurrection is contended by no one. It is purely philosophical to assume that because that is true, therefore miracles are still happening today. The dispensation of grace did not start until at least one year after the day of Pentecost (via esp. parable of the fig tree w/out fruit), and even after that, God was not completely done with the dispensation of Law, and even Paul did miracles early on in his ministry, so the dividing line is not at the cross by any stretch.

More notable is the fact that miracle accounts dramatically dropped off as time progressed, and most of the disciples ended up being terribly persecuted and martyred, yet early in those days, even prisons could not hold them back because of the miraculous intervention going on. Something drastic changed concerning miracles even in that first century, also, as there is a large change as compared to the way the bible says it will be once the end times kicks into gear. So the comment about post resurrection miracles is particularly weak especially when compared to all above, and is actually fitting for the “miracles are not for today” camp. Sorry, please try again.

 

[freelight]

to each his own

to each his own

Nonetheless,..............with God ALL things are possible....and faith granted by God has power to do beyond what the mortal mind can imagine. The power and glory of God are just as real and vital today as ever before.......because GOD IS. Jesus words still ring in the ears of those who will hear -

" Have faith in God (or 'have the faith of God'),
Truth, truth I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes those things he says will come to pass, he will have whatever he says.
Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe you receive them, and you will have them."

-Mark 11: 22-24

Miracles may still happen without the cooperation of man as in days past....but in this dispensation....God calls upon the mans cooperation and his dynamic exercise of faith....to bring forth the work and glory of God in the earth today. Therefore.....we can exercise our God-inspired faith to bring forth every-day miracles. Thru this dynamic of faith....abiding in the hearts of Gods people......miraculous things transpire thru the power of God working thru faith. Since faith is the generative power of God bringing forth all things....it is only logical that such power in action shall bring forth divine generations.

Any may choose to believe God is restricted now...but this does not stop the true faith of real believers who flow in the power of God.....abiding in their faith....and living their faith today. This kind of life puts no limits on faiths power...because Jesus himself taught that this kind of miraculous faith and its efficacy is enforce always....as long as their are those who will believe......and receive.

Each man will receive what his faith will afford him - and so.....'let it be according to your faith'.....is a universal principle for your meditation.


paul

 

[Freak]

Ah! Will 1 way deal with Scripture?

Ah! Will 1 way deal with Scripture?

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak and all interested parties

This is a repost from post 118, to confront Freak with the truth of the matter.

The truth is found in Holy Scripture, 1Way.

We know from Scripture that the miracle of the new birth fosters belief not unbelief. Scripture recounts the strengthening of the church when the lost is converted. Furthermore...one has to believe in a miracle --the resurrection of Jesus to experience salvation.

Due to Christ's greatest miracle--raising from the dead--we find justification--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Despite this, 1Way's hero has stated:

"Miracles foster unbelief."

Source: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3679&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

This is clearly in error. For the following reasons:

The Scripture defines a miracle as such:

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Jesus tells us a miracle would include the delivering of a person from demons. These miracles still occur in our day...for God gives His church gifts (such as the gift of miracles) to rescue those in darkness.

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc????

The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13).

Homework for 1Way:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.