Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles

[Clete]

Re: Freaks idea of miracles and Bob's idea of miralces are vastly different...

Re: Freaks idea of miracles and Bob's idea of miralces are vastly different...

Originally posted by 1Way
The futility enters not in Bob or myself or Jesus arguing these points, it's in Freaks total aversion to the truth of the matter.

This is the point I was making in a nutshell.

I agree that the Bible comes down on one side or the other of this issue. Miracles are either happening today or they are not. You will never convince either Godrulz or Freak that your Biblical position is correct because their stance on this issue is not based on exclusively Biblical material. They are both quite convinced that they have experienced miracles and they are quite content to believe the testimony of their experience over any Biblical material that you or anyone else can bring to bare. It is because of this that I wish to test to see whether such "experiences" have any substance or if these Christian brothers have been tricked by their senses and emotional states of mind.

Originally posted by godrulz
Clete: There are books, biographies, autobiographies, ministries, medical files, etc. that document God's miracles (I have listed some previously). You need to flow in Pentecostal circles or look harder. The evidence is out there (I hope if you saw it you would not attribute it to the devil?!).

It is no where near good enough to simply say that a book exists or that so and so said this or that. This is what is called hear say, or at best it is anecdotal evidence. What I want is substantive evidence, evidence that can be verified by people who are not charismatic or perhaps not even Christians, people who do not have an axe to grind on this issue. It shouldn't be that difficult to find someone who lost a hand in a work related accident who has been restored, or someone who had one glass eye who can now see out of two eyes, or perhaps someone who was dead that I could call on the phone and talk to. Of course you would need to provide their name and information about how to contact them.
It can't be that difficult, there are dozens and dozens of miracles every day according to Bonnke, Wigglesworth, Hinn, and the like all I want is undeniable proof that even one single miracle has occurred in your life time.
If you are not able to prove that they have occurred then why do you believe that they do occur?

And as for attributing it to the devil IF I see it....
Let's cross one bridge at a time shall we?
Show me first, then we'll talk about who gets the credit.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

There are few things worse than a Pentecostal who puts experience above the Word in formulating a doctrine (charismatics can be charismaniacs with the heresies we come up with). My understanding of Scripture supports the continuation of miracles. Ancedotes are secondary. I have not personally experienced profound creative miracles, but there are secular doctors who have the CT, X-ray, or MRI evidence to show creative miracles have happened (even though they hesitate to give God the glory).

There is nothing explicit in the simple reading of Scripture to preclude God's supernatural intervention through the ages. A dispensational system is an artificial template that forces this conclusion, rather than simple exegesis of relevant passages.

Even if I never heard of a modern miracle or experienced one, I would still argue from Scripture that we can and should see them.

There are other explanations of miracles including: demonic, illusion, fraud, deception, psychosomatic/psychological, coincidence, etc. The counterfeit only proves that there is a genuine.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

There are few things worse than a Pentecostal who puts experience above the Word in formulating a doctrine (charismatics can be charismaniacs with the heresies we come up with).

Agreed! :thumb:

My understanding of Scripture supports the continuation of miracles.

So what? My understanding supports otherwise, as does the absence of any physical evidence to the contrary which you yourself admit should exist.

Anecdotes are secondary.

Ask any scientist in any field of empirical study and he will tell you that anecdotal evidence is precisely the kind of evidence that one must completely ignore. It is totally useless in an effort to determine objective truth because it is, by definition, subjective in nature.

I have not personally experienced profound creative miracles, but there are secular doctors who have the CT, X-ray, or MRI evidence to show creative miracles have happened (even though they hesitate to give God the glory).

Although I have no doubt that you believe this to be true, the fact remains that you are completely unable to produce this evidence for inspection. The same is true of whomever it was that told you that such evidence exists.
And why the crap does everybody always want to get some fancy CT scan, X-ray, or MRI data anyway? Just show the film for goodness sakes! Where is the film showing someone’s severed hand being instantly reattached? And not at some idiotic Benny Hinn revival miracle sale, but at some work site somewhere or at a hospital? Where's the video tape of someone healing a small child who has a bloated belly from not having eaten for two weeks? Where is the tape of a Down's Syndrome child who's genetic dysfunction was repaired instantaneously?

There is nothing explicit in the simple reading of Scripture to preclude God's supernatural intervention through the ages. A dispensational system is an artificial template that forces this conclusion, rather than simple exegesis of relevant passages.

Saying it doesn't make it so.
And even if it did, Dispensationalism isn't the only model that discounts the occurrence of modern day supernatural physical miracles.
Just imagine, you have an opportunity here to categorically disprove Dispensationalism! All you have to do is prove that undeniable, supernatural, physical miracles happen today!

Even if I never heard of a modern miracle or experienced one, I would still argue from Scripture that we can and should see them.

Why?
If an argument from Scripture showed that we should see purple Geese flying over head at Noon on every third Thursday of the month and we in fact did not see any purple Geese as argued, then either the argument is wrong, or the Bible is wrong, or both.
In this case your argument from Scripture demands that "we can and should see" miracles happen. The fact is, however, that we do not. Therefore, either your argument is wrong, or the Bible is, or both.

Which is it?

Neither?
Then show me the miracle.

There are other explanations of miracles including: demonic, illusion, fraud, deception, psychosomatic/psychological, coincidence, etc. The counterfeit only proves that there is a genuine.

No one is suggesting that there is no such thing as miracles or that God is incapable of performing them, just that He has chosen for good reason not to do so for the time being.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I have to say that debating with you feels a bit weird! I'm used to being on your side of whatever issue is being debated. It strikes me as interesting because most theological issues stem from only a hand full of certain core believes and I'm not sure how one could be both a Charismatic and an Open Theist. The two seem somewhat incompatible. Not because they directly conflict with one another but simply because the two positions usually grow out of two entirely different theological world views. It's sort of like getting plums from a peach tree!
Very weird!
FUN! But very weird! :freak:
I look forward to your next post!
God Bless!

 

[freelight]

the divine issue.....

the divine issue.....

Hello all,

It is amazing that some do not appear to believe that with God ALL things are possible....and that Jesus said that our faith in God...which is the faith of God (of the His eternal substance).....can avail to move mountains, inspire miracles or be the springboard to bring forth supernatural wonders. ALL things are possible to Him who believes. It is more foolish to restrain oneself to confining God with his own theological construct based on his lack of faith....rather than exercise ones faith in the Spirit of God which is without measure and has no mortal limits. As a disciple of the Anointed One.....I avail myself of the Spirits power....thru faith....who is the ever-present Reality Being....whose glory is preeminent. Assuming that miracles no longer happen because one does not see them is part of the manifestation of faithlessness. Miracles happen more or less...and in manifold degrees every day if we have an eye to see them. It is ones faith that opens the horizons and grants the believer to enter into the pleasures of God...which abound with signs, wonders and miracles at every turn. It would seem fundamentally absurd to presume to be a believer and not believe God for the 'all' that faith can acquire....as purported by Jesus. Faith in God avails one to all the Spirit-resources of the Father....and in such FAITH....are the latent possibilities of ALL things. To those who do not limit God with their minds...but avail their hearts full of faith and see with the eyes of the Spirit and speak those things which their faith decrees - these ones will have whatever they say....in accordance with Gods will! This is the teaching of Jesus...and all the learned dispensational theologians and wanna-be scholars cannot refute it. Each one will have according to his faith - this is a law.

It is this substance that your arguments can never nullify...though you neatly craft, organize and dispensationalize the workings of God according to your own reasons.

Faith is the substance....and he who would please Deity must have this generation of faith. Limiting God like you do...is a manifestation of faithlessness however justified by your own logics. The Christos has the Spirit of God without measure...and we are his divine body - the Head and the body are ONE. We have as our spiritual heritage and grant the fullness of God. If your faith cannot accept such as truth...then it will not be to you. Again...we see the law of faith.........and that with God All things are possible....and faith in its most atomic, essential and dynamic force as originated and inspired by God himself in the human heart has indefinite power to realize the manifestation of Gods Will...and his glory in the earth,...in all time and eternity.


Therefore it seems those of your school while professing faith are actually restricting it to your own qualifications and carnal reasonings which require no faith at all! Your faith is in your pre-selected theology but does not reflect faith in the Unlimited power of divine faith which is the substance of God.




paul

 

[Clete]

Re: the divine issue.....

Re: the divine issue.....

Originally posted by freelight

Hello all,

It is amazing that some do not appear to believe that with God ALL things are possible....and that Jesus said that our faith in God...which is the faith of God (of the His eternal substance).....can avail to move mountains, inspire miracles or be the springboard to bring forth supernatural wonders. ALL things are possible to Him who believes. It is more foolish to restrain oneself to confining God with his own theological construct based on his lack of faith....rather than exercise ones faith in the Spirit of God which is without measure and has no mortal limits. As a disciple of the Anointed One.....I avail myself of the Spirits power....thru faith....who is the ever-present Reality Being....whose glory is preeminent. Assuming that miracles no longer happen because one does not see them is part of the manifestation of faithlessness. Miracles happen more or less...and in manifold degrees every day if we have an eye to see them. It is ones faith that opens the horizons and grants the believer to enter into the pleasures of God...which abound with signs, wonders and miracles at every turn. It would seem fundamentally absurd to presume to be a believer and not believe God for the 'all' that faith can acquire....as purported by Jesus. Faith in God avails one to all the Spirit-resources of the Father....and in such FAITH....are the latent possibilities of ALL things. To those who do not limit God with their minds...but avail their hearts full of faith and see with the eyes of the Spirit and speak those things which their faith decrees - these ones will have whatever they say....in accordance with Gods will! This is the teaching of Jesus...and all the learned dispensational theologians and wanna-be scholars cannot refute it. Each one will have according to his faith - this is a law.

It is this substance that your arguments can never nullify...though you neatly craft, organize and dispensationalize the workings of God according to your own reasons.

Faith is the substance....and he who would please Deity must have this generation of faith. Limiting God like you do...is a manifestation of faithlessness however justified by your own logics. The Christos has the Spirit of God without measure...and we are his divine body - the Head and the body are ONE. We have as our spiritual heritage and grant the fullness of God. If your faith cannot accept such as truth...then it will not be to you. Again...we see the law of faith.........and that with God All things are possible....and faith in its most atomic, essential and dynamic force as originated and inspired by God himself in the human heart has indefinite power to realize the manifestation of Gods Will...and his glory in the earth,...in all time and eternity.


Therefore it seems those of your school while professing faith are actually restricting it to your own qualifications and carnal reasonings which require no faith at all! Your faith is in your pre-selected theology but does not reflect faith in the Unlimited power of divine faith which is the substance of God.




paul

Blah, Blah, Blah!!!

God never directs us to check our brains at the door of the church! He says, "Come, let us reason together."
If you can't reply to a logical argument then just say so. But don't give me all this nonsense about how only those who believe miracles happen actually see them happen and that logic is somehow antithetical to faith. Do you suppose that it was faith that caused the Pharisees to see that Lazarus had been raised from the dead? Was it faith that caused the lawyers to give Jesus a hard time about having healed the lame on the Sabbath day?
While it can be argued that it takes faith to perform miracles, it can not be argued that it takes faith to witness them or to investigate evidence of there having happened.
And to complete the quote that you almost used in you post, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." "Hoped for" not "acquired". "Not seen" not "witnessed". Miracles are antithetical to true faith because they are proof that God exists. With proof, faith is no longer required and "without faith it is impossible to please God."

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Pentecostals are generally classical Arminians. Myself and others see Open Theism as a sub-type of Arminianism (emphasizes free will and denies extreme predestination and other Calvinistic ideas). I know some Open Theists here do not see any relationship between Arminianism and Open Theism, but they are certainly closer to each other than Calvinism and Open Theism. Open view is an alternative view between the 2 extremes.

There is a difference between hearsay or an anecdotal story, and a scientifically verifiable, documentable miracle. I am surprised that a servant of the Most High God would be skeptical about a miracle (not from the Virgin Mary). I take it for granted that the average believer knows someone who was healed supernaturally. Whether a tumor shrinks instantly or a hand grows back (your criteria seems to require dramatic evidence...those cases are isolated...like eyes appearing in empty sockets), a miracle is a miracle, nothing else. God is God, nothing less. People are people, nothing more.

I must have missed the proof-texts that necessitate the passing of miracles. Can you refresh my memory (I hope it is not in I Cor. 13- favorite Baptist closing of the canon argument)? Or is it based on layers of argument from "The Plot"?

Why limit the sovereign God?

If Scripture really did teach what you say, then a verifiable miracle would have to be attributed to Satan (who can counterfeit miracles) or rationalized away with a naturalistic explanation or exposed as a fraud.

I also missed the specious reason that God supposedly has stopped doing miracles for the time. I think I am an eschatological dispensationalist, but do not see this as precluding the Pentecostal revival that is happening worldwide (fastest growing and largest group within Christianity). What exactly is the reason from Scripture that God has stopped being supernatural (which is 'natural' for Him)? Satan wields supernatural weapons; the church is not left to seminars, videos, and organizational business models. Our weapons are mighty in this spiritual warfare.

I realize you feel you have a system that categorizes beliefs logically with necessary conclusions. In the absence of this, I have concluded that Pentecostalism is biblical, Open Theism is cogent, OSAS is Calvinistic, 'original sin' is Augustinian, etc.

My sincere desire is to be biblical and open to revision as the Word impacts my mind and heart.

 

[godrulz]

Miracles are the exception rather than the rule. God confirmed His Word with signs following in the NT. In cultures that worship false gods, the true God still demonstrates His power to validate the Gospel message (sometimes, not always). If Jesus wants to give a vision to Paul or a Muslim to aid their conversion, so be it. Remember Elijah and the prophets of Baal (I Kings?). God delights in revealing His power and glory to all men in all ages. The OT God is the same as the NT God. He is not a dispensationalist (no offense intended...I believe in a variation of dispensationalism).

 

[freelight]

demanding proof.......

demanding proof.......

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Why?
If an argument from Scripture showed that we should see purple Geese flying over head at Noon on every third Thursday of the month and we in fact did not see any purple Geese as argued, then either the argument is wrong, or the Bible is wrong, or both.
In this case your argument from Scripture demands that "we can and should see" miracles happen. The fact is, however, that we do not. Therefore, either your argument is wrong, or the Bible is, or both.

Which is it?

Neither?
Then show me the miracle.


No one is suggesting that there is no such thing as miracles or that God is incapable of performing them, just that He has chosen for good reason not to do so for the time being.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

)========== Hi Clete,.............so you need scientific proof that God does miracles. You want the visible evidence, tangible proof, of Gods miraculous power. Isnt that evidence of the lack of faith? What is faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. So you want proof that God does extraordinary miracles. That is not an exercise of faith. One may contemplate his own being and all creation around him within and without as the Miracle of God.

By similar reasoning above....we can assume that God doesnt exist because we cant see Him! Can He be scientifically proven? Well,.....this is a whole nother topic - but I hope some can see that the nature of faith by virtue of its substance in God......has unlimited powers. True faith in God must draw all of the potentialities and realities of the Fullness of God into being! For God Alone is the ONE Reality in which all things/beings abide. There is only One Spirit. Faith by virtue of it being of Gods substance has eternal, unlimited and even infinite possibilities which can be secured, apprehended and realized within the powers granted within the generation of faith...which Jesus says that a believer can have as an actuality - a current and experiencial posession.

{Jesus teaches on faith - Matt. 8:13; 9:29; 21:22 Mark 9:23; 11:20-26 }

The substance of faith which Jesus teaches cannot be derided by the faithless....for those of the faith of God have the substance. All that is in God...all that IS.....is in the substance. May this inspire the 'religious' to discover what faith really is.


paul

 

[1Way]

establish the truth

establish the truth

godrulz - You said

Even if I never heard of a modern miracle or experienced one, I would still argue from Scripture that we can and should see them.

There are other explanations of miracles including: demonic, illusion, fraud, deception, psychosomatic/psychological, coincidence, etc. The counterfeit only proves that there is a genuine.

I think that is a bit of an overstatement or an over confidence. We all know that the issue of miracles happening today is not clearly or easily determined from scripture. So if you did not experience a bible teaching, and the teaching is at best controversial, you should not (just) argue it because you find support reasoning in the bible, instead you should prove it in the light of those who believe the exact opposite yet also want to stand on the truth of the matter. i.e. Do an objective thorough cross examination. You think your right, we think were right, but lets not get to carried away with what we think and with what is established from scripture.

The idea that counterfeits only proves the genuine is not a given, because everything you listed may all be genuine. In fact, because of this statement, you may be highlighting the fact of your biased prejudice. Well, I would not include being demonic the way you did, I suggest that such a thing is not happening today, and more to the point, it is not a naturalist explanation. For you to say that

illusion, fraud, deception, psychosomatic/psychological, coincidence, etc. The counterfeit only proves that there is a genuine.

means that you may be guilty of dismissing the evidence before even reviewing it for credibility! Clete and thousands of others take a more objective approach to such matters and say essentially, show me, establish the truth of the matter, it must be credible, and it must pass the muster of bible scrutiny. Those so called frauds may be genuine, in fact they those things are to be expected to occur naturally, so instead of making broad generalizations, you should take the evidence into careful consideration.

My understanding of a clearly validated miracle is when believers and non-believers alike corroborate the account in such a way that the miracle is obvious. And even for the many miracles (in the bible) that were not witnessed by heathen, we know that if they were experienced by unsaved people, that as long as they were being honest, they would attribute the event as being a miracle, such is the convincing nature of a biblical miracle.

It's a common even among the unsaved world to joke that they understand the difference between the natural and the miraculous. For example, if someone thinks they are too cool for school, they might say of that person that they think they can walk on water. A biblically accurate miracle is just that obvious, and is nothing like the common stories about some third party story about something that can not be verified or can be easily explained by natural causes. Lets say that 5,000 were fed from 5 dinners worth, then such a dramatic natural impossibility multiplied by the attestation of thousands who were almost certainly not for Jesus in any sort of conflicting personal bias way, because Jesus said that they do not follow because of Him, it was because of the food, then you have the makings of a certain miracle. It's one thing to have fables within a biased fringe group, its a whole different ball game when the evidence is virtually undeniable.

Last but not least, would someone please give Bob Enyart's definition for what a miracle is. Only after we have established what a miracle actually is can we assume we know what each side is referring to, the definitions and implications are very divergent. Understanding before judgment.

 

[1Way]

godrulz - I am sorry for letting my emotions get the best of me in that I went a overboard with the name calling (posts 175, 177), even if I am mostly right about the seriousness of your problem/error, that is no excuse to over state the case. Please accept my apology.

You often model the sort of open sincerity that most only pretend to have, thank you for that, for your overall personal friendliness, and appreciation for the things of God. I pray that your receptiveness towards God's teachings grows in all areas of faith and life. As to little g godrulz, I never gave it a second thought, always seemed fine with me. Computer logins and handles are easier to express without the added caps. And, if anything a bit of intrigue can become an extra excuse to witness the truth. Sort of reminds me of GODISNOWHERE. Provocative, and cleverly disguised.

Just don't ask me to go to a Benny Hinn bible study or a big tent miracle meeting. It's not going to happen.

 

[drbrumley]

1Way,

would someone please give Bob Enyart's definition for what a miracle is

From the Plot
An event that supercedes natural or supernatural law

Hope this helps!!!!!!

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[Freak]

What a joke...

What a joke...

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

This is the point I was making in a nutshell.

I agree that the Bible comes down on one side or the other of this issue. Miracles are either happening today or they are not. You will never convince either Godrulz or Freak that your Biblical position is correct because their stance on this issue is not based on exclusively Biblical material.

Not based on Biblical material. Huh? Are you completely blind? All I have done is resort to Holy Scripture in regards to this issue...

Let's start there...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

Homework for Clete:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Hope this helps!!!!!!

In Christ,
DRBrumley

Acording to Jesus a miracle is this:

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by 1Way



Just don't ask me to go to a Benny Hinn bible study or a big tent miracle meeting. It's not going to happen.

Oh come on it would be fun! We could sit in the back and throw pop corn.

 

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Freak

Acording to Jesus a miracle is this:

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Same thing as defined in the Plot, Freak. Whats your point?

In Christ,
DRBrumley

 

[Clete]

Re: What a joke...

Re: What a joke...

Freak,
In response to this...

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
I agree that the Bible comes down on one side or the other of this issue. Miracles are either happening today or they are not. You will never convince either Godrulz or Freak that your Biblical position is correct because their stance on this issue is not based on exclusively Biblical material.

You said this...

Originally posted by Freak
Not based on Biblical material. Huh? Are you completely blind?
Blah blah blah...

I didn't say that it wasn't Biblically based, I said that it was not exclusively Biblically based.
If this web site hasn't proven anything else, it has proven that the Bible can be made to say nearly anything, especially if one is willing to be ingenuous in their pursuit of the truth. Fortunately, however, you have chosen a topic that has more than one means by which the truth of it can be verified. If your argument from Scripture is correct then physical proof of miracles should be plentiful and obvious.

So the "homework" you presumed to be in a position to assign is unnecessary. Even if I were to complete your assignment, it wouldn't convince you anyway because like I said, you have more invested in this than a simply Biblical argument.
You, however have a more difficult assignment...
SHOW ME THE MIRACLE!
You could even perform one if you like. Just be sure to document it in some independently verifiable way.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Re: demanding proof.......

Re: demanding proof.......

Originally posted by freelight

)========== Hi Clete,.............so you need scientific proof that God does miracles. You want the visible evidence, tangible proof, of Gods miraculous power.

NO!
I never said I needed any evidence of God's miraculous power!
What planet are you on?
I do not and have not ever denied that miracles are possible and in fact have occurred. One can not be a Christian and deny the miraculous for to do so would be to deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I simply do not believe that you or anyone else can prove their Biblical position that miracles are occurring today by a presentation of physical evidence. And if there is no evidence that a thing happened then how am I to believe that it did? That goes for the resurrection as well, by the way, for which there is literally a mountain of evidence.

Isn’t that evidence of the lack of faith? What is faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

Yes, I already pointed this out to you! Did you read my post or just react to it? Miracles are seen and as such do not engender faith in those who see them. This is one of the primary reasons why God isn't doing them today. God loves us very much and wants for us to have faith. The more miracles that occur, the less likely that faith becomes.

One may contemplate his own being and all creation around him within and without as the Miracle of God.

No this is not a miracle. It may be in a manner of speaking but this is paramount to saying that everything that happens is a miracle which would remove all meaning from the word "miracle".

By similar reasoning above....we can assume that God doesn’t exist because we cant see Him! Can He be scientifically proven?

No such assumption can be made because there is gobs and gobs and scientifically valid evidence that He does indeed exist.
Don't believe me?
:readthis: Read this! :readthis:

The substance of faith which Jesus teaches cannot be derided by the faithless....for those of the faith of God have the substance. All that is in God...all that IS.....is in the substance. May this inspire the 'religious' to discover what faith really is.

This makes no sense in this context. It sounds like you are saying that the creation is evidence for a creator which is true of course but what does that have to do with whether or not God is performing miracles today?

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by 1Way

godrulz - I am sorry for letting my emotions get the best of me in that I went a overboard with the name calling (posts 175, 177), even if I am mostly right about the seriousness of your problem/error, that is no excuse to over state the case. Please accept my apology.

You often model the sort of open sincerity that most only pretend to have, thank you for that, for your overall personal friendliness, and appreciation for the things of God. I pray that your receptiveness towards God's teachings grows in all areas of faith and life. As to little g godrulz, I never gave it a second thought, always seemed fine with me. Computer logins and handles are easier to express without the added caps. And, if anything a bit of intrigue can become an extra excuse to witness the truth. Sort of reminds me of GODISNOWHERE. Provocative, and cleverly disguised.

Just don't ask me to go to a Benny Hinn bible study or a big tent miracle meeting. It's not going to happen.

Thank you for your words of wisdom (godrulz) and humility. I think God is as concerned with our character as He is with our theological excellence. It is good to have the freedom to be ourself (unique personality) and to have a Christ-like heart.

I was feeling rebuked by the Spirit to try to edify (build up) in all things where possible, rather than tear down or disrespect. I support strong convictions and understand the passion for truth against error. I think I am stubborn and can be argumentative with an arrogant bent when I feel I am right. Being sleep deprived or stressed does not help me either. I am a sponge and sincerely do not want to believe any error in theology or health quackery, etc.

I am not a Benny Hinn fan and find many American evangelists over the top and contrary to the conservative Canadian way. The power of God can come in a whisper and does not need all the histrionics and dramatics that draw attention to men. God seems to use us despite our rough personalities (cf. The 12).

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz
My sincere desire is to be biblical and open to revision as the Word impacts my mind and heart.

This attitude is obvious in your all of your posts which just makes it all the more surprising to me that you come down on this side of this issue. Be that as it may, I respect your position even though I believe it to unfounded both Biblically and otherwise.
You have not missed anything as far as proof texts or any other Biblical argument from me as I have made almost none. My argument rests solely on the lack of physical evidence for physical miracles happening today. If your Biblical position is correct then such evidence will be available. I believe this to be axiomatic. Therefore since we know that the Bible is not flawed in any way then if such physical evidence does not exist then your Biblical position is wrong.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Clete: I tell atheists to draw a circle. Even Einstein admitted he knew only a tiny amount of all possible knowledge. Mr. Atheist, is it possible that outside of your knowledge (represented by a dot in the circle) of the universe, that God exists? Answer: Yes, it is possible. An atheist cannot disprove the existence of God without being an omniscient god themselves.

Mr. Clete: If the circle represents all the acts and ways of God today, churches, believers, unbelievers, etc. and the dot in the circle represents your awareness of what is happening in churches, Christianity and individual lives...is it possible that God is doing mighty things that you are not aware of? Yes, it is. Who said that there has to be millions of front page news stories of dramatic miracles to prove that God still does miracles? There are thousands of believers around the world who have verifiable healings or evidence of miracles. Some are documented by secular media or medical journals, but not all.

The question in circles that believe in the power of God for today is: why do we not see more miracles in North America (cf. to 3rd world countries...faith, rationalism, trust, availability of alternatives, etc.) and why is not everyone healed? There are no simple answers to these complex issues (involves faith, nature of creation, enemy, free will, sovereignty, etc.).

It just seems strange that there are believers that do not recognize that God heals today, that demon possession is real and cannot be dealt with by psychiatrists, and that God can and does intervene supernaturally as it pleases Him (there are reasons why He would not normatively intervene).

I am still waiting for a simple answer on if Enyart's followers believe that healings happen today (do you pray for the sick that doctors cannot help?), what you would do for a demonized person (who told Satan he has to play on a dispensational chart?), and what are the key verses to establish an anti-supernatural position for the Church today? Perhaps the issue is not an interpretation or intellectual issue (same goes for atheism), but a moral issue of unbelief and doubt in the Living God and a North American reliance on the arm of the flesh, rather than the power of God.