Forgiving others

Forgiving others

  • ...only when they acknowledge their sin against you.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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musterion

Well-known member
Some teach that the believer needs to forgive those who sin against them IF the offender acknowledges the offense and asks forgiveness; otherwise, no. I assume they get that from the Matthew 18:15 and maybe 1 Jn 1:9.

On the other hand, Paul does not seem to make the believer's forgiveness of anyone in any way dependent upon them (Eph 4:32; Col 3:13), but solely on the fact that God has forgiven the offended believer all of his or her own trespasses (Col 2:13).
 

patrick jane

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Some teach that the believer needs to forgive those who sin against them IF the offender acknowledges the offense and asks forgiveness; otherwise, no. I assume they get that from the Matthew 18:15 and maybe 1 Jn 1:9.

On the other hand, Paul does not seem to make the believer's forgiveness of anyone in any way dependent upon them (Eph 4:32; Col 3:13), but solely on the fact that God has forgiven the offended believer all of his or her own trespasses (Col 2:13).
Some sins are difficult to forgive, like child rape and child murder etc. I have faith that God will make it right Romans 12:19 KJV - 19 [FONT=&quot]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

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Ephesians 4:26 KJV - 26 [FONT=&quot]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:


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It's better for us to forgive, it's the whole basis for salvation.

Matthew 6:15 KJV - 15 [FONT=&quot]But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.[/FONT]
 

patrick jane

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I don't see that he does. Do you?
Nothing comes to mind with Paul connecting mandatory forgiveness of others to salvation. I searched it earlier, I googled "must we forgive others" and saw Matthew 6:15 and Luke 17:4 NIV (King James says "shalt") but not anything from Paul that it's necessary for salvation. I still struggle with certain things commanded by Jesus in His earthly ministry but not after DBR. I go with what Christ says after DBR by revelation to Paul. Obviously, we should forgive others according to God and Paul.

Are some sins against us virtually impossible to forgive? How do we know if we have completely forgiven someone if we have lingering feelings of anger and bitterness? Are we forgiven if we don't forgive?
 

ebenz47037

Proverbs 31:10
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I'm going completely away from Scripture on this one. While I believe that we are to forgive someone if they ask forgiveness, I also believe that sometimes we have to forgive for our own sanity. In my case, I had a hard time with the anger I had for my mother for over thirty years. I was abused and neglected as a child. My anger was beginning to take over my life in my early thirties. I had to forgive her, even though she admitted no wrong-doing, in order to give myself a chance at sanity. When I told her that I forgave her, she said, "Why do you forgive me? I did nothing wrong." I ended up not getting mad at her for that. But, I was able to live the last nineteen years with no anger for her because I forgave her. My life has been much better since then.
 

patrick jane

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I'm going completely away from Scripture on this one. While I believe that we are to forgive someone if they ask forgiveness, I also believe that sometimes we have to forgive for our own sanity. In my case, I had a hard time with the anger I had for my mother for over thirty years. I was abused and neglected as a child. My anger was beginning to take over my life in my early thirties. I had to forgive her, even though she admitted no wrong-doing, in order to give myself a chance at sanity. When I told her that I forgave her, she said, "Why do you forgive me? I did nothing wrong." I ended up not getting mad at her for that. But, I was able to live the last nineteen years with no anger for her because I forgave her. My life has been much better since then.
Forgiveness is good for the soul, and I guess the mind and body as well. It feels better to forgive than to harbor anger and resentment. Good for you !!
 

Danoh

New member
Having traveled the road of forgiving one grave offense or another myself; I'll share what I have learned about this issue.

That the minute we think we "should" or "have to" forgive, we have already set our selves up for failure.

The Law was about "should" and "have to" and for a good reason.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The Law's "should" "shalt not" system had as its intent "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

Towards what intent and by what means?

"But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good;"

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound." Romans 5:20a.

And boy does that become an issue when someone really sets us off :chuckle:

That is, if our "shoulds" and "musts" are all we are aware of.

Which is the lot of many a Believer, simply due to the absence of sound "instruction in righteousness" on this issue.

Which is what the Scripture is for - "for doctrine, for reproof (of behaviour not in line with the doctrine or teaching), for correction (of beliefs not in line with the doctrine), (in other words) for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect (in other words), throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16,17.

Including the "good work" of forgiving others.

Another aspect of the failure we are likely to encounter when the time comes to forgive another is in our attempting to do so, in one's own strength.

That is to say "in the flesh."

Just as the Law had been meant to set off failure in one in that it was weak through the flesh, towards making him.or her aware of the fact of his or her indwelling sim; so does merely attempting to serve God unaware of how to approach doing so this side of the Grace of God towards us in His Son.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The Believer is not under the Law system.

So there is that.

But neither is he or she left at the mercy of the abject failure that attempting to serve God in one's own strength is also sure to result in.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

When what all that is, is properly understood, it becomes way much easier to forgive the gravest of offenses.

Thing is, most of all that is very often neither properly understood; nor properly taught; nor properly walked in, and to where it becomes much easier and easier over time, simply "by reason of use..." by the time we run into what we experience as a really serious grave offense.

Or as the writer of Hebrews had observed...

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The empowerment is there..it is just a matter of learning how to properly study out; its mechanics.

As is always the case where the Scripture is concerned.

Nehemiah 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

8:12 And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them.
 

Danoh

New member
Nothing comes to mind with Paul connecting mandatory forgiveness of others to salvation. I searched it earlier, I googled "must we forgive others" and saw Matthew 6:15 and Luke 17:4 NIV (King James says "shalt") but not anything from Paul that it's necessary for salvation. I still struggle with certain things commanded by Jesus in His earthly ministry but not after DBR. I go with what Christ says after DBR by revelation to Paul. Obviously, we should forgive others according to God and Paul.

Are some sins against us virtually impossible to forgive? How do we know if we have completely forgiven someone if we have lingering feelings of anger and bitterness? Are we forgiven if we don't forgive?

Forgive this long wind.

My hope is that you might benefit from it, in some way.

I know that I do, each time I "think on these things."

The answer is always one and the same.

Look to the Cross.

Was God able to forgive the murder of His Son?

Obviously.

Is that very grace available to the Believer?

Again, yes.

It is just a matter of searching it out in Scripture, towards studying out how it works, towards walking by faith in a sound understanding of it all.

And this is an issue where the study of it should be taken care of long before its answer is ever needed.

Towards having it already in hand "by reason of use" when needing it greatly eventually shows up - and show up it will.

To paraphrase the Lord - the best time to build a house is before, not during, a storm.

So there is that. And there is the right how to. And there is the doing so - way before it is needed.

And the simple fact IS that you were forgiven ALL your trespasses the moment you trusted that Christ died for YOUR sins.

I mean that is what it says, bro - for - YOUR - sins.

I hear ya. I feel for you in these kinds of things. We've all been there.

But we each have that Book :thumb:

A momentary wandering off into where the freshly mind looks at things from will result in a wondering about this or that.

But that is all that is.

And that is why the call for the need to "die daily."

That "by reason of use" when the internal storms come - for whatever reason - the peace of God that passeth all understanding automatically kicks in its long since built up in the mentality of your soul sense of "it is well with my soul."

Its odd how loving someone who has injured you ends up concern for them over yourself.

That is how this is meant to work in the Believer, as odd as that sounds.

Then again, that is not so odd at all, but to the wisdom of this world often still residing within the mind of the Believer.

Thus, why the need for time in the Word daily.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

See that, it is not odd at all to love one's enemy.

The trap we set for ourselves as Believers is only caring for those who agree with us, or who like us, or who have done something for us, and so on.

Not so the Grace of God toward us in His Son...

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

You see this....

1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

It is just a matter of doing a thing in remembrance of Him.

In rembrance of how "that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Which is how His grace is enabled in one - via a focus on a remembrance of Him...

Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

See that - even as God for Christ's sake HATH forgiven you.

When YOU least deserved it.

Do that - forgive as He forgave you - when you least deserved it - and you'll find yourself able to.

Do that and you'll be walking in the Spirit.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

In other words, bro, look at such moments as opportunities to somehow sort out through the Word, how all this "works in you that believe."

I mean, you're IN Christ - ACCEPTED IN the BELOVED.

Meaning, simply remind yourself that you have no business allowing your flesh to dictate how you live, or what you feel or don't feel.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

That right THERE IS YOUR reality RIGHT NOW.

Just a matter of reminding yourself, when the issues come - "THIS is NOT who I am in Christ - I'm a child of God! Accepted in the Beloved! Blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places!"

And so on. And the more time you spend in the Word getting to know the real you in the Lord, the longer that list I have just shared a bit of, becomes and works what it is meant to.

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

In short, when the issues of life come - rejoice in the reality of Romans 5:8 :thumb:
 

musterion

Well-known member
@Danoh,

That the minute we think we "should" or "have to" forgive, we have already set our selves up for failure.

The Law was about "should" and "have to" and for a good reason.

Paul taught a whole lot of shoulds (and direct orders) for those who are in Christ but that in no way put us back under Law.

For just one example, husbands were commanded no longer to be putting away their wives, as was happening in Corinth, and the separated/divorced parties were not to remarry others if not reconciled (which would have been the ideal...under grace, there is nothing between two Christ-centered, Spirit-walking, forgiving parties that cannot be reconciled and buried). That was not just a should. It was a command from Christ Himself but they were in no sense under Law because of it.

I believe plenary and even unsolicited forgiveness is one of those shoulds. I believe it's expected of us, no matter what, because of who and what we are in Christ.

Is it easy? No...not in ourselves. Usually difficult, occasionally near impossible. But unforgiveness is, I believe, a passive form of wrath, which is not ours to own. It also leads to increasing bitterness, which is sin. So forgiveness appears to be should'ed of us because God did first, and because we are members of Christ. God now holds nothing against us in Christ; that is our model.

I also would add that there was no "should" in the Law, as far as I can see. It was DO IT or else.
 

Danoh

New member
You completely missed my point, Musti...

And...

Exodus 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
 

Danoh

New member
Whose fault was that?

Yours.

What I related is standard Mid-Acts 101 on forgiveness in the Mystery age of Grace.

Perhaps you might lay out some of these "should" verses you mentioned, towards a comparison of each our "notes" on them.

And before you do, you might look into a thorough Webster's dictionary on the various uses of the word "should."

One use, sense, meaning, or understanding of which is "a present result or ability, the result of which has been made possible, or enabled by a past action" or something along that idea.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Nothing comes to mind with Paul connecting mandatory forgiveness of others to salvation. I searched it earlier, I googled "must we forgive others" and saw Matthew 6:15 and Luke 17:4 NIV (King James says "shalt") but not anything from Paul that it's necessary for salvation. I still struggle with certain things commanded by Jesus in His earthly ministry but not after DBR. I go with what Christ says after DBR by revelation to Paul. Obviously, we should forgive others according to God and Paul.

Are some sins against us virtually impossible to forgive? How do we know if we have completely forgiven someone if we have lingering feelings of anger and bitterness? Are we forgiven if we don't forgive?

Yes, we're forgiven even when we don't forgive. GRACE

Salvation is not dependent on what we do (not of ourselves).

If forgiveness of others isn't included in that, then nothing is.
 
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