For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[chickenman]

Sorry for the long email...

There is only one gospel that saves, so what would be the point of having another type of good news? Please answer this, for it totally contradicts the ONLY way of salvation...does it not?

The Gospel of the kingdom
The "gospel of the kingdom" was proclaimed by Jesus and the Twelve.

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. Matt. 4:23​

What was that gospel (aka, good news)? That the kingdom they had awaited for so long was finally at-hand.

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt. 10:7​

John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Twelve preached repentance and the keeping of the commandments, in preparation for that coming kingdom.

And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt. 3:2

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt. 4:17

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15​

Their long-awaited, prophesied kingdom was finally at hand. That was good news (gospel). The gospel of the kingdom.


The Gospel of God
Israel awaited a Messiah, according to prophecy. After they overwhelmingly rejected Him, and He was crucified and raised back to life, it was preached that the One they murdered was the very one they had been awaiting.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:22-36​

The bad news was: they murdered Him. But by repenting of their unbelief and being baptized, they could receive remission of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then, they could consider it good news that the promised seed of David had finally come.

Paul preached this message, too, as his commission during the Acts period was to go the the Jews and Greeks in the synagogues in all the cities he went to. This was the fundamental gospel message, the foundation for anything that would be said after that. Paul called this message the "gospel of God."

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead... Rom. 1:1-4​

Both Peter and Paul preached to Israelites. The fundamental message was, therefore, the same. The gospel of God.


The Gospel of Christ
Even though Paul's Roman audience had a world-renowned faith...

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom. 1:8​

...he still said:

So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. Rom. 1:15​

These people already had faith that their long-awaited Messiah, the seed of David, had come, been crucified, and rose again. Yet Paul said, "I am ready to preach the gospel to you..." So there was more that he needed to preach to them, beyond that fundamental message he called "the gospel of God". He wanted to take them further into understanding exactly WHY He did, what that meant for them, etc. That's what the letter to the Romans is all about: what are the implications of Christ's death and resurrection for you, what does it mean to be baptized into Christ, etc. We don't see Peter preaching this message, because to Peter was given a different commission than Paul. Paul, being commissioned with the gospel of the uncircumcision (Gal. 2:7-8), was sent to find a remnant, scattered throughout Gentile lands, who would hear, receive, and believe the good news that their Messiah had come. For those who would believe that, like the Roman audience, he would then teach the the depths of what that meant. He called this "the gospel of Christ".

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16​

As he said, this is the power of God unto salvation. This is the gospel by which they and we are saved. He later wrote of this gospel that saves:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures... I Cor. 15:1-4​

This is the good news that is the power of God unto salvation. The gospel of Christ.


The Gospel of the Grace of God

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24​

Paul, being made the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), preached what the Twelve before him did not. He preached a message that said Gentiles could receive forgiveness of sins and be justified apart from the law of Moses. The Twelve before him only preached to Israel, except for the special one-time mission that the Lord sent Peter on. So their ministry wasn't concerned with this. Therefore, it was never before revealed that Gentiles could be saved independently of Israel. Paul preached that good news...the good news that God was extending grace to Gentiles, saving ALL (Jews and Gentiles) in the same way, apart from the law. The gospel of the grace of God.


With that...

The gospel of uncircumcision was the overarching ministry with which Paul was commissioned. The gospel of circumcision was that given to Peter. There were similarities in each, and differences. And that's okay, because they were different commissions for different purposes. Christ sent Peter to water baptize, for instance:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost... Matt. 28:19​

Whereas Christ did not send Paul to baptize:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel... I Cor. 1:17​

Different ministries. Different commissions. Different purposes.

So, what would be the purpose of two kingdoms? The bible says the Lord does nothing without revealing it to the prophets...so, it must be written what the purpose would be, if such a thing existed.

I don't understand the question. Can you clarify?

Yes, but, you cannot have a kingdom that would be OF God, and eternal as through a man..or are you saying this earthly kingdom will not be eternal; but only temporary, until they enter into Christ? I need to be clear on this.

I don't understand this question, either. You said something about us believing in 2 kings, and I responded with the fact that there were a whole bunch of kings, but only one eternal King - Jesus Christ. So please clarify your objection here.

such things as to church bodies, one for circumcision, one for uncircumcision,

Is this church the body of Christ?

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us... Acts 7:38​

If not, then it can't be denied that there are at least 2 "churches" in scripture. "Church" is just a generic word for an assembly, gathering, etc. The context has to clarify its specific meaning.

two baptism, one for water, and one for spirit...

There are multiple baptisms in scripture:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire... Matt. 3:11​

There are 3 baptisms mentioned in this one verse.

There was Christ's baptism of death (Matt. 20:23). The Israelites baptism unto Moses (I Cor. 10:2). The priests of old baptized the implements, ark, table, etc. in the tabernacle (Heb. 9:10). And there is our one baptism (Eph. 4:5).

All we are doing, G&P, is seeing and acknowledging that there are many different baptisms in scripture. It's undeniable, so we accept it. And we recognize that only one of them pertains to us in the Body of Christ, and that is our baptism into Christ which took place when we believed the gospel and the Spirit placed us in Him.

it seems to be MAD that separates these into different categories,

We recognize and acknowledge and accept the differences that I pointed out above.

... when the bible says that the shadows exist in the same 'body', but only stand fulfilled....(shown as the true light)

It is as if you are saying there is some form of life in the shadows and the bible does not teach that; they are just what they are, shadows pointing to a reality. They have no life of their own.

My question is how can you make life out of a dead ritual?

Can you clarify your ending point here and provide scriptures? Maybe that will help me understand your point.

Thanks for your respectful questions, graceandpeace. :up:

Randy

 

[chatmaggot]

STP:



the new covenant; they knew of it and knew it was coming and embraced IT:

The new covenant was prophesied, but it didn't refer to the time in which we now live. The new covenant is described in Jeremiah 31.

Jeremiah 31:31

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Jeremiah tells us to whom the New Covenant to be for.

When Jesus says in Matthew 26...

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom...

It was like a spotlight shining back in time to what was spoken of to the prophets of the past. And it was a kingdom message.

 

[graceandpeace]

Thank you chickenman for all of that....I am going to break it up into parts so that it will not appear so long....and, if I am understanding you correctly; it is not as if there was 'another' gospel, it is just that the one gospel was being preached in POWER as by Paul?

At least that is what it appears you are saying?


However, I have to speak to this:

Paul, being made the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), preached what the Twelve before him did not. He preached a message that said Gentiles could receive forgiveness of sins and be justified apart from the law of Moses.

This was always preached by power of the holy ghost. Even David understood it...

or how do you view these verses:

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So, what I am having problems witih is why you all don't see this?

God always taught those whom were of faith, the same 'faith'.

It being preached with power, only means it went more widespread; worldwide...so, I have to disagree with your interpretation, due to the fact that I cannot see God's people/those whom walked by faith priorly in any different light than what God Himself said they believed...and, taught.

The 12 spoke of the same message, and, just because it is not all written out, like God used Paul to do; (give us the written new covenant), does not mean that the 12 had a different message. That is based on an assumption, in mho...

they just went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, so that salvation would go to the jew first.

The Twelve before him only preached to Israel, except for the special one-time mission that the Lord sent Peter on. So their ministry wasn't concerned with this.

but, it was..because the gospel went to the jew first, as written.

Therefore, it was never before revealed that Gentiles could be saved independently of Israel.

Independantly? That is not written. What is written is that we are fellowheirs.


Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Fellowheirs with the house of Israel, as written...so, I would not say that it says they were saved independantly.

Where is it written that gentiles would be saved indendantly?

Paul preached that good news...the good news that God was extending grace to Gentiles, saving ALL (Jews and Gentiles) in the same way, apart from the law. The gospel of the grace of God.

Yes, in but in the same body..fellowheirs with the house of Israel.

With that...

The gospel of uncircumcision was the overarching ministry with which Paul was commissioned. The gospel of circumcision was that given to Peter. There were similarities in each, and differences. And that's okay, because they were different commissions for different purposes. Christ sent Peter to water baptize, for instance:

only to show a physical shadow so that it could be understood in the true spiritual reality.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost... Matt. 28:19

Whereas Christ did not send Paul to baptize:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel... I Cor. 1:17

He just meant that it was not his office to baptise....he didnt mean that baptism was wrong in some way....he knew and taught it as the same as Peter...a shadow of a reality, that we are to learn by..not as a means to salvation.

Let me ask you this..who said this:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

don't you see that he did understand the true baptizm?

You are misapplying what baptizm is for...and, misapplying that those whom did baptize with water did not understand the true one. Even Jesus underwent the water type...was He OF the circumcision?

Come on...this does not make sense.

Different ministries. Different commissions. Different purposes.

I don't see that. I will answer some of the rest of your post...

 

[graceandpeace]

The new covenant was prophesied, but it didn't refer to the time in which we now live. The new covenant is described in Jeremiah 31.

Jeremiah 31:31



Jeremiah tells us to whom the New Covenant to be for.

When Jesus says in Matthew 26...



It was like a spotlight shining back in time to what was spoken of to the prophets of the past. And it was a kingdom message.

I dont agree...the new covenant itself explains that it is for now; it is the new covenant in His blood, as written.

 

[graceandpeace]

Going onward, Chickenman:

I said:

Quote:
So, what would be the purpose of two kingdoms? The bible says the Lord does nothing without revealing it to the prophets...so, it must be written what the purpose would be, if such a thing existed.

Chickenman:

I don't understand the question. Can you clarify?

The bible makes it clear that God does nothing without revealing it through the prophets, so I was asking what is the purpose of two kingdoms..an earthly one and a heavenly one.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

It must be written somewhere the purpose of these two different type of kingdoms of God.

I said:

Quote:
Yes, but, you cannot have a kingdom that would be OF God, and eternal as through a man..or are you saying this earthly kingdom will not be eternal; but only temporary, until they enter into Christ? I need to be clear on this.

Chickenman:

I don't understand this question, either. You said something about us believing in 2 kings, and I responded with the fact that there were a whole bunch of kings, but only one eternal King - Jesus Christ. So please clarify your objection here.

I will just ask, is this earthly kingdom that you believe will be on the earth, an eternal kingdom, or temporary?

I said:

Quote:
such things as to church bodies, one for circumcision, one for uncircumcision,

Chickenman:

Is this church the body of Christ?

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us... Acts 7:38

If not, then it can't be denied that there are at least 2 "churches" in scripture. "Church" is just a generic word for an assembly, gathering, etc. The context has to clarify its specific meaning

No, I didnt mean to imply that they were a real church. What I am trying to say is that the bible does not teach that they are separated. Even amongst the old covenant, the church was scattered among the tares...(circumcised, among the uncircumcised..that is why you cannot understand the old covenant without understanding the new, first).

Not all Israel IS Israel; we are told. Only by faith is one counted as the seed; as written.

Jesus said the wheat and tares are to grow together until the harvest....did He not?

Today we all sit side by side, by those whom would claim to be IN Christ; but they are yet in the shadows...it has always been this way, and will always be this way, until the harvest, and then Jesus comes to separate them, but the tares are burned...not put in an earthly kingdom.

Sooo?

 

[Nick M]

Paul's complaint against Peter and James is they were trying to proseltyze gentiles into the Kingdom after they were put away. Paul explains this to gentiles that were proseltyzed to Israel in Rome. Romans 11:11. Israel is put away, and gentiles are saved apart from Israel, rather than through them.

 

[graceandpeace]

Hi again, chickenman:

Quote:
two baptism, one for water, and one for spirit...

There are multiple baptisms in scripture:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire... Matt. 3:11

There are 3 baptisms mentioned in this one verse.

There was Christ's baptism of death (Matt. 20:23). The Israelites baptism unto Moses (I Cor. 10:2). The priests of old baptized the implements, ark, table, etc. in the tabernacle (Heb. 9:10). And there is our one baptism (Eph. 4:5).

All we are doing, G&P, is seeing and acknowledging that there are many different baptisms in scripture. It's undeniable, so we accept it. And we recognize that only one of them pertains to us in the Body of Christ, and that is our baptism into Christ which took place when we believed the gospel and the Spirit placed us in Him.

everyone of those baptizims can be categorically put in two. One of the flesh; and one of the spirit.

There are only two...just because there are different verses speaking of one of the two, doesnt mean there are varying different types other than the two, as I see it.

Look at each one closely, you can pretty much tell which one it is speaking of. There are only two covenants, two baptizms, two cirucumcisions, two types of people, etc..etc.Just and unjust, Saved and unsaved. Law of faith; verses law of stone; fleshly Israel, spiritual Israel; physical jew, spiritual jew..the list goes on and on.

 

[Nick M]

I will just ask, is this earthly kingdom that you believe will be on the earth, an eternal kingdom, or temporary?

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will beno end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

When Christ assumes the throne as shown here, and in Revelation 18, his rule will not end. The Saints rule with him for the 1000 years will end, but not his.

Ruling with a rod of iron is not a "Spiritual" Kingdom.

 

[graceandpeace]

Paul's complaint against Peter and James is they were trying to proseltyze gentiles into the Kingdom after they were put away. Paul explains this to gentiles that were proseltyzed to Israel in Rome. Romans 11:11. Israel is put away, and gentiles are saved apart from Israel, rather than through them.

Only those of unbeleif were put away....we are added to the ones that remained on the vine:



Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Are you going to deny Christ of His remnantn that did believe that He added us to?


Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

The remnant elect obtained it....and the rest were blinded;cut off.

 

[Nick M]

Only those of unbeleif were put away....we are added to the ones that remained on the vine:

The olive tree is earthly Israel. Unless you think people are knocked out of the Body of Christ by God.

 

[graceandpeace]

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will beno end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

When Christ assumes the throne as shown here, and in Revelation 18, his rule will not end. The Saints rule with him for the 1000 years will end, but not his.

Ruling with a rod of iron is not a "Spiritual" Kingdom.

We as saints will rule with Him with that ROD:

Dont you know that we shall judge angels?, and sit on twelve thrones judging the tribes of Israel?

This is speaking of the time that under Christ, the church will be gathering back in those whom will accept the message, that did not have a chance in the old covenant, because they never heard the gospel.

I could give the verses, but I have to go fix supper.

There is only one kingdom of God....it is heavenly that we all enter by faith, but it is coming to this earth, down out of heaven...for a purpose..and, then when it is complete, all things will be gathered together in Christ; and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. He is reigning NOW over HIS HOUSE..the saints.

 

[graceandpeace]

The olive tree is earthly Israel. Unless you think people are knocked out of the Body of Christ by God.

A person can be cut off due to unbelief, before they are saved...salvation is not complete until Christ comes to live in us.

born again.


A person is not considered 'saved' until then.

 

[graceandpeace]

last post chickenman..then i gotta get supper.......

Quote:
... when the bible says that the shadows exist in the same 'body', but only stand fulfilled....(shown as the true light)

It is as if you are saying there is some form of life in the shadows and the bible does not teach that; they are just what they are, shadows pointing to a reality. They have no life of their own.

My question is how can you make life out of a dead ritual?

Can you clarify your ending point here and provide scriptures? Maybe that will help me understand your point.

Thanks for your respectful questions, graceandpeace.

Randy

What I am trying to put into words and it is hard because it is hard to explain how a dead ritual can have life, but isnt that what you are doing, by saying that Peter was sent to the circumcision..to gather together a dead body?

The bible is clear that the shadows, have no life.

The ceremonial laws that were shadows pointing to a reality had no life in themselves.
Yet, it seems as if MAD has given them life, by giving them a earthly kingdom..to come.

you see what I mean?

 

[chickenman]

Thank you chickenman for all of that....I am going to break it up into parts so that it will not appear so long....and, if I am understanding you correctly; it is not as if there was 'another' gospel, it is just that the one gospel was being preached in POWER as by Paul?

At least that is what it appears you are saying?

The scriptures tell us there were multiple gospels, G&P. I quoted the passages. I think our disconnect is how we're viewing the word. I see it used as simply a generic word for "good news". Something has to tell us what that good news is, and the context will do that in each case. It's just a word. It shows up as "glad tidings" in Luke 1:19, "good tidings" in Luke 2:10, and "gospel" in a host of other places.

I think we may be talking about two different things, because it sounds like you're saying there's only one gospel in scripture, but there are obviously multiple "good news" messages.

However, I have to speak to this:

Paul, being made the apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13), preached what the Twelve before him did not. He preached a message that said Gentiles could receive forgiveness of sins and be justified apart from the law of Moses.

This was always preached by power of the holy ghost. Even David understood it...

or how do you view these verses:

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So, what I am having problems witih is why you all don't see this?

We absolutely DO see that salvation apart from works can be found hidden in the scriptures. We can look back at those scriptures now , like Paul did in Romans, and deduce salvation apart the law. But David wasn't saying anything about Gentiles being saved by grace through faith, apart from Israel and the law.

Paul quoted David from Ps. 32. David certainly wasn't speaking of himself. In addition to what Paul quoted, David also wrote of himself:

for day and night Thy h and was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, "I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord;" and Thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. Ps. 32:4-5​

David knew he had to confess his transgressions unto the Lord to be forgiven. He also understood his relationship with God, that without repentence and and contrite heart, sacrifices and offerings (the law) didn't mean squat to God. He later wrote:

For Thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: Thou delightest not in burn offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51:16-17​

So we can know for sure that works were always irrelevant to a relationship with God if the individual didn't have a contrite heart. But that doesn't mean works weren't required. Or asking forgiveness. Or confession. Just before David wrote about a contrite heart, he wrote...

Have mercy upon me, O god, according to Thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Ps. 51:1-3

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Ps. 51:7

Hide Thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Cast me not away from Thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. Ps. 51:10-11​

As members of the Body of Christ, aren't we already forgiven, made just and righteous, holy and blameless? Do we need to cry out to God to wash us clean, to blot out our iniquities, and plead with Him to not take away the Holy Spirit from us? Or haven't those things already been taken care of by virtue of us having been placed into Christ?

David understood what was fundamental to his relationship with God, and he also understood that that didn't absolve him of a responsibility to that which God had given and required of David and the nation of Israel. God told them things like:

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations... Deut. 7:9​

So it's clear that keeping the commandments was an absolute requirement if someone wanted to remain in the covenant relationship with God. David knew this. And thankfully, he also understood that a relationship with God was based upon not only works on the surface, but a heart condition. One who would walk by faith would do that which God said to do. One who would have a contrite and repentant heart would not neglect the performance of those works that God required. Works didn't save. But works done from faith would keep one in a covenant relationship with God.

Paul quotes David to make a point that David himself didn't understand, even though he wrote the words. This makes sense when we read things like:

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Rom. 16:25-26​

The Lord intentionally hid certain things from the saints of old, things that we can look back now and see. We can NOW look back and find the idea of salvation by faith alone and apply that to us, just like Paul did in Romans. But it cannot be said that, therefore, David was saved by grace through faith. He looked forward to that day. But in his life, he still cried out for the Lord to not take the Holy Spirit from him, for the Lord to forgive him. Those were his very words, from Ps. 51. And all of Israel knew that in order to remain in a covenant relationship with God, they had to love Him and keep His commandments. Those were God's very words, directly from Deut. 7.




I'm skipping some things so this doesn't drag out forever. Please let me know if you want me to address anything I'm skipping, gp.

Therefore, it was never before revealed that Gentiles could be saved independently of Israel.

Independantly? That is not written. What is written is that we are fellowheirs.

By "independently", I meant that it was never before revealed that Gentiles could be saved by not going through Israel. Gentile salvation, according to prophecy, would mean doing that which was required of Israel.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Fellowheirs with the house of Israel, as written...so, I would not say that it says they were saved independantly.

Where is it written that gentiles would be saved indendantly?



Yes, in but in the same body..fellowheirs with the house of Israel.

I explained my use of the word "independently". And my point was about what could be seen or not seen in prophecy. Quoting Ephesians doesn't help with prophecy. It shows the reality now, not what could be found in prophecy.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost... Matt. 28:19​

Whereas Christ did not send Paul to baptize:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel... I Cor. 1:17​

He just meant that it was not his office to baptise....he didnt mean that baptism was wrong in some way....he knew and taught it as the same as Peter...a shadow of a reality, that we are to learn by..not as a means to salvation.

I made no statement whatsoever about it being wrong in any way. I simply quoted the passages and pointed out the words that were used in those passages. According to the passages I quoted: 1) Was Peter SENT to baptize? 2) Was Paul SENT to baptize?

The answers are "Yes" and "No". That was my only point. And it illustrates in just one of many ways that there were differences in their ministries.

Let me ask you this..who said this:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

don't you see that he did understand the true baptizm?

What is "true baptism"? If you mean our one baptism, then no. John the Baptist said nothing of this. He spoke of baptism WITH the Holy Ghost (which we know is Pentecost, per Jesus' words in Acts 1) and baptism with fire. Baptism WITH the Holy Ghost has nothing do do with being baptized BY the Holy Ghost INTO Christ.

So if, by "true baptism", you mean our one baptism (Eph. 4), then no...John didn't understand that because it wasn't spoken of, wasn't what he was speaking of, wasn't part of the prophetic program that he was proclaiming. He was preparing Israel for the upcoming pouring out of the Spirit, per Joel 2, for the coming judgment, and the coming kingdom.

You are misapplying what baptizm is for...and, misapplying that those whom did baptize with water did not understand the true one. Even Jesus underwent the water type...was He OF the circumcision?

Come on...this does not make sense.


I don't see that. I will answer some of the rest of your post...

That's fine. To each his own.



We need to shorten up the exchanges, G&P. As I was trying to be thorough with this one, I saw some other responses from you. I don't have the time to put a lot of effort into continued long responses. So maybe we could keep the posts to one addressable question at a time, and not a whole string of them??? Could we do that? That way, we can keep this going in a more manageable fashion. I want to address your questions as best as I can, but this has taken up too much time doing it this way. So can we give it a try the way I've suggested?

Thanks for understanding

Thanks,
Randy

 

[Nick M]

Dont you know that we shall judge angels?, and sit on twelve thrones judging the tribes of Israel?

I thought you didin't want to mix?

 

[Nick M]

As soon as somebody proves that Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising us into Christ, is the day the Bible falls apart.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

As soon as somebody proves that Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising us into Christ, is the day the Bible falls apart.

That's a good point as well, Nicholas.

There are many baptisms found in the bible, which one is the "one baptism" of Ephesians?

Likewise, there are many good news messages found in the bible, which one is the "one faith" for today?

The only answer, while retaining your sanity, is found in Paul's epistles written directly for us today.

 

[graceandpeace]

I thought you didin't want to mix?

What are you referring to?

 

[graceandpeace]

Hi Chickenman:

We absolutely DO see that salvation apart from works can be found hidden in the scriptures. We can look back at those scriptures now , like Paul did in Romans, and deduce salvation apart the law. But David wasn't saying anything about Gentiles being saved by grace through faith, apart from Israel and the law.

apart from Israel?

That is it, I don't believe gentiles are saved apart from Israel; and that is why I dont hold to mad.

We are saved, in the same body; for He has made ONE new man.

We are added to the believing Israelites of the OT...nothing has been replaced; nothing as been left out; (Israel of the flesh).

Paul quoted David from Ps. 32. David certainly wasn't speaking of himself. In addition to what Paul quoted, David also wrote of himself:

for day and night Thy h and was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, "I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord;" and Thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. Ps. 32:4-5

I read this like I read 1 John...David is speaking of his conversion, and speaking of the gospel in the same context.

So, I dont agree.:think:

 

[graceandpeace]

Hi chickenman:

Have mercy upon me, O god, according to Thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Ps. 51:1-3

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Ps. 51:7

Hide Thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Cast me not away from Thy presence; and take not thy Holy Spirit from me. Ps. 51:10-11

As members of the Body of Christ, aren't we already forgiven, made just and righteous, holy and blameless? Do we need to cry out to God to wash us clean, to blot out our iniquities, and plead with Him to not take away the Holy Spirit from us? Or haven't those things already been taken care of by virtue of us having been placed into Christ?

Again, reading this with your eyes wide open might help. David spoke of his repentance upon conversion.

God does not deal differently with those whom walked by faith in the OT....they are in the same faith we are.

Cant see it any other way. The word faith does not change from one covenant to the next..it means faith; period.

David understood what was fundamental to his relationship with God, and he also understood that that didn't absolve him of a responsibility to that which God had given and required of David and the nation of Israel. God told them things like:

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations... Deut. 7:9

Surely you don't think God is two faced, with those whom walked by faith?

Those whom walked by faith walked by the law of Christ; not the stone letter...they were not sinners, knowing their sins were not imputed..same as us.

NONE of the ot saints were under the law of Moses.