For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
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Sheila B
Member
The secret that was only vaguely hinted at all through the OT was that :
God would become man.
Mary would be made pregnant by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
God's Son would take on human flesh and dwell among us.
God's Son would be the Perfect Lamb awaited by Abraham when Isaac was not sacrificed. God Himself will provide the Lamb.
The mysteries of Christ's whole life death and resurrection are a whole lot more of a mystery than the different preaching of Peter and Paul (that MAD is attempting to show) for a few years. That is not the mystery kept hidden from the foundation of the world. There was not a Jewish nation from the foundation of the world.
God would become man.
Mary would be made pregnant by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
God's Son would take on human flesh and dwell among us.
God's Son would be the Perfect Lamb awaited by Abraham when Isaac was not sacrificed. God Himself will provide the Lamb.
The mysteries of Christ's whole life death and resurrection are a whole lot more of a mystery than the different preaching of Peter and Paul (that MAD is attempting to show) for a few years. That is not the mystery kept hidden from the foundation of the world. There was not a Jewish nation from the foundation of the world.
Pam Baldwin
New member
Yes, all of Israel will be saved, in the Millenium. True Israel. The Land will be cleansed from all reprobates via the sword of the 144K.
The Jews then that were not elect, would be "not Israel", the true Israelites....are that in their hearts. That's how I understand it.
Rom 11 is a difficult passage. Probably because to us (well, us=non-Jew/21stcentury people) we don't have the background knowledge of those in Paul's audience. But I suspect that to them it was a great explanation and helped them to understand what was going on with this "new" Body dispensation.
Glad to hear that you are not a universalist
I'm not sure what you mean by the statement:
I see a much wider mercy than is generally supposed.
It is safe to say ALL the elect
*
Grafted out of the olive=grafted out the kingdom i.e. it's blessings
The Kingdom of God is the manifestation of the fruits of righteousness, the blesssings of righteousness. That's what Isreal has at the present been grafted out of, not neccesarily salvation. [that's got you pondering
I agree that "Israel" is not grafted out of salvation. Technically there is no recognized nation as God's in the Body dispensation. Any person that is Jewish, or an Israelite (a citizen of Israel) can be grafted into the root (Christ) as a member of the Body Of Christ. i.e. neither Jew not Gentile.
Pam :upright:
Good morning, everyone! :wave2:
Good time for a question.
How does one determine what, in the Bible, is supposed to be doctrine by which we in the Body of Christ are to live our lives?
Notice I'm not asking what's for us; it's all for us. Notice I'm not asking about how to determine things from which we can make/take application.
Thanks,
Randy
Good time for a question.
How does one determine what, in the Bible, is supposed to be doctrine by which we in the Body of Christ are to live our lives?
Notice I'm not asking what's for us; it's all for us. Notice I'm not asking about how to determine things from which we can make/take application.
Thanks,
Randy
Oh boy!!!
Oh boy!!!
Now Randy, this, surprisingly, requires some thinking! You are asking "what" do we take to apply to our own bottom line? Since I agree with your statement "it's all for us" I must begin the process of cutting to my own foundation motivators and beliefs? This is hard (she whines a bit...) but it is also a challenge so I'll be back. peace, bybee
Oh boy!!!
Now Randy, this, surprisingly, requires some thinking! You are asking "what" do we take to apply to our own bottom line? Since I agree with your statement "it's all for us" I must begin the process of cutting to my own foundation motivators and beliefs? This is hard (she whines a bit...) but it is also a challenge so I'll be back. peace, bybee
Let me ask a specific example that should be very easy to answer. Are we in the Body of Christ supposed to treat the book of Leviticus as doctrine by which we are to live our lives? Why or why not?
Again, I'm not asking if we should or can make any applications from the book of Leviticus. That's an entirely different question.
This thread is about helping people to understand (agree or not) the MidActs position, and exploring these questions should go a long way in helping with that understanding.
Thanks,
Randy
Pam Baldwin
New member
:wave2: Oh! Oh! Pick me!!
You stated this question very well, Randy.
So many times people think that just because "we follow Paul" means that we want to throw out the rest of the Bible.
I would say that all the epistles and books written by Paul would be where we as members of the One, can directly apply what is stated.
However, some of the earlier books written by Paul, there are Jewish Kingdom saints present, and some instruction are geared to how the Body saints were to treat them. They are also Elect, but not in the Body . For instance, the "weaker brother" Rom 14:21 and 1 Cor. 8:11, is referring to the Kingdom saint. Not a "weak" Body saint. There are no "weak" brothers now as the Second Generation Kingdom Saints are dead. Thye were without strength back then as pertaining to the Body Hope/Law. So PAul instructs the Body saints to
abstain from the food items that Jews were forbidden rahter than cause them to stumble . They were to respect their brothers, and honor their Hope.
Since the Body's Hope is to sit on the throne and rule over the angels, Israel and Gentiles, we need to master their Hopes too. So, we should be studying all of the Scriptures.....just not directly applying them as to how we live.
Pam
Tico
New member
Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I thought I would throw this out. Lately in my Bible reading I stumbled across this principle tucked away in Amos (imagine a MAD guy reading the OT). Here it is:
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Does this principle also apply to the mystery?
After all, He revealed His change of plans to Peter in Acts 10.
Then we have Ephesians...
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Prophecy in the NT was given to understand secrets or mysteries...
1 Cor. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Does this principle also apply to the mystery?
After all, He revealed His change of plans to Peter in Acts 10.
Then we have Ephesians...
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Prophecy in the NT was given to understand secrets or mysteries...
1 Cor. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Hello Pam and other MADsters:
Which Jews?
Kingdom Jews or Judaism Jews?
In Acts 10:9-19 Peter is shown the sheet with unclean animals. Some say this is where God first says it is ok to eat any meat, and others say it is an allegory showing salvation was now available to Gentiles the same way as Jews.
Later in Acts Paul tells the new believers not to eat meat sacrificed to idols in order to not offend certain people.
Who where these people?
Were they Kingdom believers as MAD claims? Or, were they Jews who practiced Judaism in the synagogues?
Were dietary laws abolished when the New Covenant started (was offered) at Pentecost?
Why did the Kingdom believers (if there is such a thing) have to observe the Old Covenant dietary laws? Did they have to observe dietary laws?
Adam and Eve could only eat fruit. They couldn’t even eat vegetables because to eat a vegetable you have to kill the plant (i.e. carrot), and there was no death to anything before the fall.
After the fall they were allowed to eat vegetables.
Noah new about clean and unclean animals, he took 7 pairs of clean animals and 2 pairs of unclean animals on the ark. Since this was before the Old Covenant, it wasn’t strictly an OC issue.
During the OC, the Jews could not eat unclean animals.
So, when did not eating unclean animals end?
Pentecost? Peter’s vision? Mid Acts?
IOW, how does eating meat of unclean animals and MAD jive?
_
Tico master.
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?" Amos 3:6-8
Would not the context be warning to his prophets, so that they would warn the Israelites, so they would "clean up their acts", before it was too late, i.e., judgment?
"a trumpet"=warning
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing", i.e, withholding judgment
until
"he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets"=let the prophets know what was coming
Law/justice and grace principle working:The LORD God, due to His holiness/righteousness, will judge evil, but, in love, He gives a "heads up", a forewarning, to those He is about to judge, through the prophets, to whom He has revealed this(secret) . That is, there is a just cause that He should judge evil, but His love intervenes with a warning.
verse 8:"The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?"=Just as lion's roar causes trembling, fear, so does the LORD God's voice through the prophets warning to the people. And when the LORD God speaks, the prophets cannot be silent(even though men may demand the prophets to "shut up"-7:10-17).
Thanks for jumping in, PB. I agree with you.
Can you expound upon that a bit, for the sake of those who are following along? Are you saying that we in the Body of Christ can make application from non-Pauline writings, but those writings are not to be treated as doctrine by which we are to live our lives? Can you explain? Take Leviticus, for example. Why do you believe we are not to treat that as doctrine by which we should live?
I'd love that opinion of non-MidActs'ers, too, on the questions I posed earlier.
Thanks!
Tico
New member
Probably a little of both. However, here are some examples of Paul's concern for the Kingdom Jews:
1 Cor. 8:9But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
The Kingdom Jews were able perish. Why would anyone saved under grace have wanted to cause a brother for whom Christ died to perish?
Here's another example:
Rom. 14:14I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
The dietary laws were reiterated by the NC:
Jer. 31:33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
1 Tim. 4:4For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Tico
New member
Yes, that would be the immediate context--to warn Israel. In fact Jesus did just this in Luke 13:6-9. However, I'm wondering if there is a general principle found in verse 7 that God would inform His Jewish prophets when He changes His plans--not necessarily first, but to let them know what is happening. My heart won't be broken if the answer is "no".
I have found that learning about OT things like the arc of the covenant can have enormous benefits for believers in this dispensation.
Have you ever wondered why the wood had to be an exact kind of wood, or why it had to be an exact size, or why the gold had to be located where it had to be? Or how about the two cherubs on top of it? What did they represent?
In my opinion, once a believer learns about all the feasts, sacrifices, laws, tabernacles, temple, etc, it helps the believer understand the shadow system of what was to come, and an understanding of why God made replicas on earth of what is in Heaven.
If more believers understood the OT, there would probably be much less confusion over the NT.
(Rom 14:17) For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Doesn't MAD believe the NC is synonymous with the Kingdom of God?
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Tico
New member
Not always. For example, 1 Cor. 15:50.
1 Cor. 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(Rom 14:2) One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
Romans chp 14 is often used by MAD’s to show that Body believers were not to eat unclean meat in order to not make a Kingdom believer perish.
My first question is how could a Body believer make a Kingdom believer perish by eating unclean meat?
My second question is that most non-MAD’s see Romans chp 14 as Paul simply addressing believers to not judge weaker believers who observe the Sabbath, or that do not eat unclean meat. Paul says that if they do it in faith, then who are we to judge them for doing so.
If Paul is addressing Body believers in relation to Kingdom believers, why are the Kingdom believers referred to as “weak”? In Rom 14:2, Paul says these people have weak faith. Did Kingdom believers have weak faith?
I TOTALLY agree with you, T-bone. Every single MidActs'er believes this, too. So thanks for pointing this out.
My question was about doctrine, though. Aside from shadows, types, and applications, how does one determine which writings are to be treated as doctrine by which we in the Body are to live our lives?
Thanks, bud!
Randy
___
"I have found that learning about OT things like the arc of the covenant can have enormous benefits for believers in this dispensation."-tet
Agreed:
"Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples:(types-my note) and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 1 Cor. 10:11
"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4
I took a "Jewish roots" course.
"We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long." Psalms 74:9
" For the Jews require a sign, ...." 1 Cor. 1:22
"And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning." Exodus 12:22
The teacher showed me the following re. Exodus 12:22:
If you take a piece of paper, draw a door, and do exactly as the LORD instructed, i.e., take your pencil/pen from the bottom of the door from the bason of blood(at the mid point of the bottom), trace the blood straight up to the midpoint of the lintel, and then go straight to midpoint of the left side of door("side post"), and then straight across to midpoint of right side of the door("side post")-do not "lift up" the pen/pencil-What do you have?
Answer: The Cross! Is not the LORD saying, in western idiom, "You want a sign, you have it! My only Begotten Son!"
No.
Because everything in Leviticus that was necessary for people to be saved is encapsulated within our salvation through Christ.
Leviticus should be easily understood in a BC context if we understand our AD situation.