ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

glorydaz

Well-known member
Hello friend,

I do assert that logic proves God formed the worlds. In fact, logic and reason lead, through and with evidence, to God creating and sustaining the universe.

Does it prove they were created by His speaking it into existance? I'll agree, man can figure out alot by observing what is around them, and we were created with the knowledge of God in us. But without the Scriptures, we'd be left to a lot of speculation and man's opinions, don't you think?

As for your visual analogy, is remaining in the prison, having heard the door was open, a sin? If so, then it once again proves my original statement.

I would call it stupidity, but God calls it unbelief.

All those who remain in their prison cell (of sin) do so with their sins paid for, but unless they put off their unbelief and come out (believe), they will die in their sins. That doesn't mean Christ didn't die for all of those sins.

(If you want to know more about reason/logic pointing to God creating the heavens and the earth ((and all things therein)) I will happily make a post about it. I have a lot of scientific evidence to defend my position, much to the annoyance and dismay of atheists)

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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Christ does give us eternal life. No one goes to hell except by their own desire.

Is Christ is speaking of a life on earth or the eternal? A life eternal. A simple reading reveals two things: 1- Once we have received eternal life (ie- are in heaven), we shall never be plucked from it. 2- That which Christ says is unchanging and eternally binding.

No, once a person believes then at that time he receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life"
(Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

And once again, the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. But despite this fact you continue to turn a blind eye to what He says. We also know that "eternal life" is a gift (Ro.6:23) and here is what is said about the gifts of God:

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

Once the LORD gives the gift of eternal life to believers that gift will not be taken back.

But according to your ideas the LORD will take back that gift which is freely given to believers and those believers can perish despite the words of the Lord Jesus to the contrary:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"
(Jn.10:28).​

You did not address my quote of James saying "man is justified by works and not by faith alone." You just provided a verse where James speaks of faith and the eternal. That doesn't answer a question. That avoids a question by throwing up smoke and mirrors, trying to give the illusion that the verse provided proves your point, when in fact, it does not. The question remained unanswered.

I thought that you would understand that the following words of James demonstrate that once a person believes the word of truth then he is born of God and therefore saved:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).​

When we understand this then we know that the verses which you refer to in the second chapter of the same epistle cannot contradict what James said in the first chapter. What James is speaking about in the second chapter is referring to how one's faith is viewed by other men and not by the LORD:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works"
(Jas.2:18).​

We can tell that James' argument is about what one person can know about another man's faith by what is said here:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?" (v.14).​

This is talking about what a person says about his faith to another person. And if a man tells another man that he has faith then the other man cannot know if that is true unless he sees evidence of good deeds which flow from faith. If no evidence is seen then as far as other men can see that faith can only be described as a dead faith:

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (v.17).​

Sir Robert Anderson writes the following:

"Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life"
[emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).​

The meaning which you place on James' words in the second chapter contradicts what James said in the first chapter and it also contradicts what is said about Abraham by Paul here:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).​
 
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dodge

New member
Paul didn't think that a person's intellect is immaterial. That is why when he preached he "reasoned out of the scriptures" with his listeners.

You do know that it is impossible to "reason" about anything unless you use your brain, don't you?

Or perhaps you don't.

Jerry you missed the whole point of what Paul preached here try again !

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

You can stick with what you THINK you know I will stay with the power of God !
 

dodge

New member
Do you think that Paul was in error when he "reasoned" out of the Scriptures?

Hello ! The power of God has nothing to do with man's intellect. Man's intellect or reasoning leads most right away from God. Reasoning from scripture has to do with God's power NOT man's intellect.

Man's intellect has led them to evolution, abortion, denying their creator, and
accepted errors like the Roman Catholic church, J.W's, MADist, Mormons on and on.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
Jesus saved me all on his own.

Even you admit you had to do something, you believed.

I just believed that his blood washed the sins that I repented of doing.

It's those sins you won't even admit to that you need to worry about. If "repenting" is your work of the day instead of "obedience", that is.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Hello ! The power of God has nothing to do with man's intellect. Man's intellect or reasoning leads most right away from God. Reasoning from scripture has to do with God's power NOT man's intellect.

We receive the revelation of God through His supernatural gospel which comes in power, in assurance, and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). For those who do not resist that Spirit the Lord gives us an understanding of these things (1 Jn.5:20) and by this understanding we receive the evidence of things not seen. However, as you can see in many places the Apostle Paul goes into detail about these things, giving us even more evidence that these things are true.

Believe it not we have to use our brains in order to understand what Paul and the other writers of the Bible say. We have to "think" about what is revealed in the Bible. That is why Paul "reasoned" out of the Scriptures when he preached.

However, there are some people who are so lazy they let other people do their thinking for them. These people end up putting more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than they do in what the Scriptures actually say.
 

Danoh

New member
Hello ! The power of God has nothing to do with man's intellect. Man's intellect or reasoning leads most right away from God. Reasoning from scripture has to do with God's power NOT man's intellect.

Man's intellect has led them to evolution, abortion, denying their creator, and
accepted errors like the Roman Catholic church, J.W's, MADist, Mormons on and on.

What's going on in you dodge is very simple.

You have reached the limits of what you are able to see given what you still need to look into, and are responding to this issue of Acts 17's word "reasoning," from within this obvious limitation of yours.

Here, I'll prove it to you that you are basing things on a limitation you have reached in your understanding.

The following is a study of sorts, on Acts 17:2's word "reasoning."

Not that you're alone in this.

STP has skirted this issue, when I have mentioned it to him twice, already :chuckle:

Now don't you make his mistake, nor RD's when he reached the limits of his understanding and called me dense out of what was actually his own densness in that moment :D

We all have such limits in seeing one thing or another.

1- but anyway, regarding the word "reasoning" in Acts 17:2...

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/17-2.htm

2- what it is based on, together with its' various forms; and the fact that our word "dialogue" or going back and forth in any communication between people; is based on it.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1256.htm

3- examples of its' use in Scripture, summarised.

http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_1256.htm

And that is just part of how such things are studied out in some depth before allowing one's own conclusions...

Individual word studies that not only demand that one often be very exhaustive in one's approach, but that often involve the study of every word in that way; no matter how seemingly familiar any word might appear to be, at first glance.

The best toward you as to this.

Proverbs 27:17.
 
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Cross Reference

New member
Your ongoing Pride?





Today you add repent to believe, and yesterday you added obey to believe.

Some days you add baptize, repent, and obey.

That's why I mean....what's your "work for the day" on any particular day?

Dear Dazed,

If, in her believing for her salvation as you do, additional believing for a relationship with Christ Jesus would be unecessary. She would be believing she has it all irrespective of any possibilty that Jesus could have made a mistake in saving her. She would be believing she is signed, sealed and delivered to the kingdom of God without the need to deal with lingering sin in her life that hinders anyone from entering. That is what I see from your replies you believe for yourself. Am I wrong?? . . I hope so.

Question: Are you familar with the term, "sin of presumption" or "presumptious sin"?

"Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer."
Psalm 19:13-14 (KJV)
 

Cross Reference

New member
Does it prove they were created by His speaking it into existance? I'll agree, man can figure out alot by observing what is around them, and we were created with the knowledge of God in us. But without the Scriptures, we'd be left to a lot of speculation and man's opinions, don't you think?



I would call it stupidity, but God calls it unbelief.

All those who remain in their prison cell (of sin) do so with their sins paid for, but unless they put off their unbelief and come out (believe), they will die in their sins. That doesn't mean Christ didn't die for all of those sins.



:thumb:


When did the scriptures come on the scene that they "might" effect man's reasoning?

When was the Holy Spririt given to be a "teacher/comforter"?

Who "might" only profit from those 2 helps?
 
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