• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Evolutionists: How did legs evolve?

6days

New member
Jose Fly said:
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said you simultaneously rely on and disparage his work.
I rely on his data ... too bad he doesn't trust it himself. He lays out the data, then looks for possible scenarios to wipe it away.

Jose Fly said:
Oh my goodness 6days. Genetic load only becomes even a possible issue in timeframes of "millions of years".
Oh my goodness Jose fly. :) You either don't believe that yourself, or you don't understand genetics as well as I thought you did. Your statement is nonsense! As geneticist J.F. Crow said, that the decrease in viability from mutations accumulation is some 1- 2% per generation. Geneticists call it a paradox because it is not consistent with millions of years of accumulating mutations and degenerating genomes.

Jose Fly said:
Therefore......? (Kondrashov suggests synergistic epistsis as a solution, which is the exact opposite of the multiplicative model other geneticists have suggested.)
Geneticists who believe in millions of years have a problem. They have created models, which sometimes contradict each other as they try make the data fit their beliefs.
Jose Fly said:
Oh, so you're saying you've never referred to genetic load from VSDMs as problematic for evolutionary theory?
It is a problem for those who reject God's Word. We don't need try create artificial models to wipe away the evidence. Genetic load in humans is consistent with a perfect genome that has been subjected to a few thousand years of mutations.

Jose Fly said:
Also, you ignored yet another question. Do you agree with Kondrashov's (2002) estimates and conclusions, including the ways he verifies his results?
Again, I disagree with his attempts to make the data fit into his apriori beliefs of millions of years. In this article he relies on 2 hypothetical solutions... synergistic epistasis and truncation selection.
 

Jose Fly

New member
I rely on his data ... too bad he doesn't trust it himself. He lays out the data, then looks for possible scenarios to wipe it away.

Oh my goodness Jose fly. :) You either don't believe that yourself, or you don't understand genetics as well as I thought you did. Your statement is nonsense! As geneticist J.F. Crow said, that the decrease in viability from mutations accumulation is some 1- 2% per generation. Geneticists call it a paradox because it is not consistent with millions of years of accumulating mutations and degenerating genomes.

Geneticists who believe in millions of years have a problem. They have created models, which sometimes contradict each other as they try make the data fit their beliefs. It is a problem for those who reject God's Word. We don't need try create artificial models to wipe away the evidence. Genetic load in humans is consistent with a perfect genome that has been subjected to a few thousand years of mutations.

Again, I disagree with his attempts to make the data fit into his apriori beliefs of millions of years. In this article he relies on 2 hypothetical solutions... synergistic epistasis and truncation selection.

This is positively fascinating, in both a sad and amusing sort of way. I'll explain....

First, we need to understand that population genetics is a sub-field of evolutionary biology that focuses on statistical modeling of how populations evolve. If populations didn't evolve, there would be no "population genetics".

In 1995, population geneticist Kondrashov publishes a paper wherein he notes that according to the understanding of the genetics of evolution at that time, the statistical models seem to indicate that when populations are reduced to low levels for very long periods of time, very slightly deleterious mutations can accumulate and cause problems for the population. He finishes by offering up 5 potential resolutions.

As the years go on, a few other population geneticists take up the issue, do some more statistical modeling, incorporate new information (e.g., the full human genome), and explore (mathematically) Kondrashov's resolutions. Eventually in 2001, they generally settle on one primary resolution (synergistic epistatsis). That pretty much resolves the issue and everyone moves on.

But now, via whatever means, 6days becomes aware of Kondrashov's 1995 paper (where he first explains the potential problem and offers 5 resolutions). However, when 6days tries to cite this paper in his efforts to discredit evolutionary biology as a whole, he fails to mention that 1) it was the seminal work on this specific issue, 2) it contained 5 potential resolutions, 3) the issue was subsequently taken up by other population geneticists, 4) population geneticists (including Kondrashov) generally agreed on one resolution in 2001, and 5) the issue itself (accumulation of VSDMs) is only problematic when populations remain very small over millions of years.

Why did 6days not bother to mention any of that? It could be that he is simply parroting what he read at some creationist website, and since they didn't bother noting any of the above, 6days was merely unaware. Or it could be that he somehow independently came across Kondrashov's 1995 paper, only understood it as far as the title, and his posts are reflective of that level of ignorance. Finally, it could be that 6days came across the article, read it, understood it, was aware of and understood the follow-up work and conclusion, but dishonestly chose not to mention any of that and instead presented it as if it was still an outstanding and unresolved problem.

I'll let folks come to their own conclusion about which of those is the most likely scenario. Personally, I figure it's the first one....he's just mindlessly parroting what those he trusts have told him.

But the truly fascinating part comes in when I start exposing all of the context and information that 6days left out (for whatever reason).

When I note that Kondrashov presented 5 potential resolutions for further evaluation, 6days waved those away because they rely on "millions of years", which contradicts his religious beliefs.

But then if 6days doesn't believe in "millions of years", then he must also not believe that accumulation of VSDMs is an issue, since that also takes "millions of years", right? Nope. Apparently he accepts the problem but rejects the resolutions, even though both require "millions of years", because......reasons.

Multiple people point out to 6days that the alleged problem only arises when a species is reduced to very small numbers over very long periods of time, which doesn't apply to humans. 6days simply ignores that. He dodges every attempt to get him to acknowledge those factors.

6days continues to assert that the problem is real, and then cites another paper by Kondrashov (2002) about mutation rates. But what he fails to mention is that the paper actually provides yet another confirmation of human-chimp common ancestry. When I ask about that, 6days just waves it away. So yet again, he cites a paper while rejecting its methods and results.

Then 6days claims that Kondrashov (1995) relied on a specific estimate of functional/non-functional regions of our genome. When repeatedly asked to show where Kondrashov did that, 6days dodges every single time.

To me, this is fascinating behavior. What I now wonder is how long it'll be before 6days reverts back to his original talking point and pretends none of the above ever happened.
 

6days

New member
Jose Fly said:
If populations didn't evolve, there would be no "population genetics".
We agree. Populations adapt and change, and can do so rapidly; and populations often go extinct. (That is observational science.)
Jose Fly said:
In 1995, population geneticist Kondrashov publishes a paper wherein he notes that according to the understanding of the genetics of evolution at that time, the statistical models seem to indicate that when populations are reduced to low levels for very long periods of time, very slightly deleterious mutations can accumulate and cause problems for the population. He finishes by offering up 5 potential resolutions.
You are not really telling the story. Here it is in more detail.... more factual.

The problem of genetic burden was recognized by geneticists long before 1995. It was likely well before 1950 that geneticists knew, even just one deleterious mutation, per person per generation would result in deterioration of the genome (No matter what the population size is). Modern science shows the problem is far worse than geneticists of the past feared.
Jose Fly said:
As the years go on, a few other population geneticists take up the issue, do some more statistical modeling, incorporate new information (e.g., the full human genome), and explore (mathematically) Kondrashov's resolutions. Eventually in 2001, they generally settle on one primary resolution (synergistic epistatsis). That pretty much resolves the issue and everyone moves on.
As the years go on, science progresses, and secular geneticists are shocked at the genetic load problem. Articles continue to be written trying to rationalize the data, with the evolutionary belief system. Where as in the past, geneticists thought the mutation level was tolerable at .32 or less; they now realize that when all mutation types are taken into consideration, the number is likely in the several hundred additional mutations, per person, per generation. Each person has thousands of deleterious mutations, with trillions in the human genome,

Some secular geneticists try 'delete' their problem (increasing load) with hypothetical, artificial models such as synergistic epistasis, multipicative model, additive model and truncation selection.... even quasi-truncation. (Rather than accepting the data). These geneticists, in effect create models to shoehorn data to fit their beliefs. (Example Kondrashov's 5 potential resolutions).
Jose Fly said:
But now, via whatever means, 6days becomes aware of Kondrashov's 1995 paper (where he first explains the potential problem and offers 5 resolutions). However, when 6days tries to cite this paper in his efforts to discredit evolutionary biology as a whole, he fails to mention that 1) it was the seminal work on this specific issue, 2) it contained 5 potential resolutions, 3) the issue was subsequently taken up by other population geneticists, 4) population geneticists (including Kondrashov) generally agreed on one resolution in 2001, and 5) the issue itself (accumulation of VSDMs) is only problematic when populations remain very small over millions of years.
Oh Jose..... your comments now range from funny.... to almost dishonest.... to uniformed.

I mentioned the problem of increasing genetic load in Kondrashov's article asking how you thought the problem could be resolved. Your initial attempt at an argument seemed to imply that I was dishonest and didn't have access to the article. When you were proved wrong on that, you still refused to answer the question. You could have picked any of the 5 "potential resolutions".

In 2006 geneticist L.Lowe ... STILL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND the data within evolutionary beliefs wrote"After compiling realistic values for the key parameters in human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) I find that a surprisingly large range of biologically realistic parameter combinations would lead to the extinction of the human line over a period of 20 million years - if accepted wisdom about mtDNA and Muller's ratchet is correct. The resulting genomic decay paradox complements a similar threat from extinction due to mutation accumulation in nuclear DNA and suggests evaluation of unconventional explanations for long-term persistence. " ( IOW, your 2001 comment is nonsense)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...o_Muller's_ratchet_in_human_mitochondrial_DNA
Also, notice...Lowe is only look at damage to mitochondrial DNA here. The problem is MUCH bigger.
Jose Fly said:
It could be that he is simply parroting what (6days) read at some creationist website
Funny... I suppose that you are simply parroting what you have read on evolutionist sites. Your comment is funny because I am sure you and others have diligently been scouring creationist websites so you can show that I am cut and pasting as Barbarian keeps claiming.
Jose Fly said:
(6days)dishonestly chose not to mention any of that and instead presented it as if it was still an outstanding and unresolved problem.
Pffft.... your "potential resolution" seems to be more a case of you jumping up and down saying 'there is no problem... don't try change my mind with the data'. JOSE.... sorry that you don't like it but the problem of increasing genetic load...is still a problem to secular geneticists in 2018. You can easily google articles in PLOS, Nature, Human Genetics etc and find articles dealing in various ways with the problem... EX. "OF SPECIAL CONCERN IS THE RATE AT WHICH MUTATIONS ARE ARISING IN OUR OWN LINEAGE..." (2016) http://www.genetics.org/content/202/3/869
Jose Fly said:
But then if 6days doesn't believe in "millions of years", then he must also not believe that accumulation of VSDMs is an issue
Try convince geneticists that the accumulation of VSDM's is not a problem. You won't get too far. (Some consider them worse, because ..."time bomb"). Try convince geneticist Crow who said we are currently suffering a 1-2% decrease in viability per generation due to mutation accumulation
Jose Fly said:
Multiple people point out to 6days that the alleged problem only arises when a species is reduced to very small numbers over very long periods of time, which doesn't apply to humans.
You are wrong and ignore the data. That point is foolishness Jose. Geneticists continue being concerned... continue writing articles trying to rationalize what their eyes tell them (Data) with what their hearts want to believe (uphill evolution)

The data is consistent with God's Word. Our perfectly created genome has been subjected to several thousand years of mutations. We will continue seeing increases in genetic disorders....until He (Our Creator)returns.
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
The data is consistent with God's Word. Our perfectly created genome has been subjected to several thousand years of mutations. We will continue seeing increases in genetic disorders....until He (Our Creator)returns.

Well we know you are incorrect because H. sapiens has been around for much more than "several thousand years". Until you realize and accept the real world you will remain woefully unable to understand.
 

Jose Fly

New member
It was likely well before 1950 that geneticists knew, even just one deleterious mutation, per person per generation would result in deterioration of the genome (No matter what the population size is).
Please support this with a citation.

As the years go on, science progresses, and secular geneticists are shocked at the genetic load problem.
Huh....I don't see any indication of anyone being "shocked" by this. Do you have an example?

Articles continue to be written trying to rationalize the data, with the evolutionary belief system. Where as in the past, geneticists thought the mutation level was tolerable at .32 or less; they now realize that when all mutation types are taken into consideration, the number is likely in the several hundred additional mutations, per person, per generation. Each person has thousands of deleterious mutations, with trillions in the human genome,

Some secular geneticists try 'delete' their problem (increasing load) with hypothetical, artificial models such as synergistic epistasis, multipicative model, additive model and truncation selection.... even quasi-truncation. (Rather than accepting the data). These geneticists, in effect create models to shoehorn data to fit their beliefs. (Example Kondrashov's 5 potential resolutions).
So basically you're saying that you accept the science that was used to identify the potential problem, but you reject the science that was used to identify the resolutions.....even though both extend from the same field, utilize the same methods, and are based on the same overall framework of evolutionary theory.

You do realize what that's called, right?

Further, I have to wonder about the broader narrative you're advocating here. It seems you're saying that population geneticists discovered that genetic load is a massive, serious problem, and then they essentially conspired to make up a series of resolutions to make the problem go away....and then published it all in journals for anyone who's interested to see.

How do you think that makes any sense at all?

Oh Jose..... your comments now range from funny.... to almost dishonest.... to uniformed.
Well 6days, the problem here is, you've had this pointed out to you multiple times and you've ignored it every time. Let's recap...

IOUAE attempted to alert you to the fact that Kondrashov (1995) specifically stated that the problem only exists in populations that remain small over long periods of time.

You ignored that part and snipped out IOUAE's comment about "fringe science".

Later I attempted to get the same point across to you by showing the context in which other population geneticists cited Kondrashov (1995.

You completely ignored it.

I guess this is just part of your overall pattern of behavior. You cherry-pick posts the same way you cherry-pick science.

I mentioned the problem of increasing genetic load in Kondrashov's article asking how you thought the problem could be resolved. Your initial attempt at an argument seemed to imply that I was dishonest and didn't have access to the article. When you were proved wrong on that, you still refused to answer the question. You could have picked any of the 5 "potential resolutions".
*sigh*

As I tried to convey to you, your question was nonsense. As documented above, the problem only exists when selective pressures are greatly relaxed, as in very small populations over long periods of time. You kept ignoring that and posing your question as if the problem existed no matter what.

In 2006 geneticist L.Lowe ... STILL TRYING TO UNDERSTAND the data within evolutionary beliefs wrote"After compiling realistic values for the key parameters in human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) I find that a surprisingly large range of biologically realistic parameter combinations would lead to the extinction of the human line over a period of 20 million years - if accepted wisdom about mtDNA and Muller's ratchet is correct. The resulting genomic decay paradox complements a similar threat from extinction due to mutation accumulation in nuclear DNA and suggests evaluation of unconventional explanations for long-term persistence. " ( IOW, your 2001 comment is nonsense)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...o_Muller's_ratchet_in_human_mitochondrial_DNA
Also, notice...Lowe is only look at damage to mitochondrial DNA here. The problem is MUCH bigger.
Please quote from the actual body of the paper where he talks about genetic load in nuclear DNA.

Funny... I suppose that you are simply parroting what you have read on evolutionist sites.
Nope. I'm not sure what "evolutionist site" you think I'm copying from, but if you have one in mind, show where it contains material that is the same as what I've been posting.

Your comment is funny because I am sure you and others have diligently been scouring creationist websites so you can show that I am cut and pasting as Barbarian keeps claiming.
I showed where creation.com presented this in the same manner as you. Whether you're parroting from them or somehow independently became aware of all this, I'll allow folks to reach their own conclusion.

Pffft.... your "potential resolution" seems to be more a case of you jumping up and down saying 'there is no problem... don't try change my mind with the data'.
Again we see how you accept the science used to identify the potential problem while rejecting the science used to resolve it, even though they are effectively the same.

JOSE.... sorry that you don't like it but the problem of increasing genetic load...is still a problem to secular geneticists in 2018. You can easily google articles in PLOS, Nature, Human Genetics etc and find articles dealing in various ways with the problem... EX. "OF SPECIAL CONCERN IS THE RATE AT WHICH MUTATIONS ARE ARISING IN OUR OWN LINEAGE..." (2016) http://www.genetics.org/content/202/3/869
You know 6days, it's hilarious how you keep trying to use papers from evolutionary biologists to argue against evolutionary biology. I mean, did you even read this paper? If so, I would love to hear your summary of it. And if you could let me know ahead of time which parts of it you accept and which parts you arbitrarily reject, that would help too.

Try convince geneticist Crow who said we are currently suffering a 1-2% decrease in viability per generation due to mutation accumulation
Citation and in-context quote from the paper please.

You are wrong and ignore the data.
Um....there's only one person here arbitrarily rejecting the science 6days.

That point is foolishness Jose. Geneticists continue being concerned... continue writing articles trying to rationalize what their eyes tell them (Data) with what their hearts want to believe (uphill evolution)
Exhibit A

You accept the science that was utilized to identify the potential problem, while rejecting the science used to resolve it, even though both are based on the same data, methods, and framework.

It's quite amusing to see you then turn around and try and accuse others of your own faults.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Well we know you are incorrect because H. sapiens has been around for much more than "several thousand years". Until you realize and accept the real world you will remain woefully unable to understand.
Talk about begging the question...

Jonah, if you don't have anything to add to the conversation besides your fallacies and insults, or if you simply just want to bash any beliefs other than your own....

ac5764c4303bc752343de30dfbb34695.gif
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Well we know you are incorrect because H. sapiens has been around for much more than "several thousand years". Until you realize and accept the real world you will remain woefully unable to understand.
Oh, and Christian scientists understand many (if not most) things just fine in light of special creation. It's the evolutionists who are constantly being baffled, confused, startled, and confounded by discoveries.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Oh, and Christian scientists understand many (if not most) things just fine in light of special creation. It's the evolutionists who are constantly being baffled, confused, startled, and confounded by discoveries.
Huh.....that's funny because creationism hasn't contributed a single thing to our scientific understanding in at least a century, whereas evolutionary biology has been the unifying framework of the life sciences for over 150 years.

Your rhetoric doesn't seem to match reality.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Huh.....that's funny because creationism hasn't contributed a single thing to our scientific understanding in at least a century,

Why only a century? Why not since Darwin?

I can think of a few contributions:

Michael Faraday, died 1867, Electromagnetism
Matthew Maury, 1873, Oceanography
James Clerk Maxwell, 1879, Electromagnetic Radiation
Louis Pasteur, 1885, Microbiology
James Joule, 1889, Thermodynamics
Lord Kelvin, 1907, Thermodynamics
Joseph Lister, 1912, Modern Surgery
George Washington Carver, 1943, Modern Agriculture

whereas evolutionary biology has been the unifying framework of the life sciences for over 150 years.

Are you appealing to popularity?

Just because something is accepted as true, for any amount of time, does not make it true.

Your rhetoric doesn't seem to match reality.

So which of these


light bulb, vacuums, pasteurization, railway, typewriter, electric motor, carburetor, loudspeaker, telephone, phonograph, microphone, photographic film, seismograph, solar panels, punch cards, cars, combustion engine, AC transformer, contact lens, tractor, ballpoint pen, cinematography, wind energy, zipper, escalator, X-ray, remote control, tape recorder, air conditioning, fire fighting foam, neon lamp, EKG, airplane, seismometer, sonar, radio, TV, rockets, radar, sliced bread, transfusion (think Harvey here), EEG, steel, radio telescope, jet engine, computer, Velcro, transistor, atomic clock, nuclear reactor, fiber optics, hard drives, satellites, spandex and spam, lasers, digital photography, optical disc, 3D holography, LED, mouse, lunar lander, Venus lander, video games, video cassette, space station, e-mail, karaoke :), LCD, microprocessor, MRI, Ethernet, PC, DNA sequencing, Internet, Plasma TV, GPS, MP3 player, flash drive

(from kgov.com/fathers)

did the inventors need Darwinism to invent?

You seem to be making the same argument as Theodosius Dobzhansky, that "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution."

One question though...


In a list of major inventions and technologies since 1860, can you identify ones that were enabled by Darwinian insight, or by belief in an old earth?

(again, from kgov.com/fathers)
 

Jose Fly

New member
Why only a century? Why not since Darwin?

I can think of a few contributions:

Michael Faraday, died 1867, Electromagnetism
Matthew Maury, 1873, Oceanography
James Clerk Maxwell, 1879, Electromagnetic Radiation
Louis Pasteur, 1885, Microbiology
James Joule, 1889, Thermodynamics
Lord Kelvin, 1907, Thermodynamics
Joseph Lister, 1912, Modern Surgery
George Washington Carver, 1943, Modern Agriculture
Please explain how the contributions those people made to science were from creationism.

Are you appealing to popularity?
No, I'm stating facts. Creationism hasn't contributed a single thing to science in over a century, whereas evolutionary biology has.

Just because something is accepted as true, for any amount of time, does not make it true.
I never said that.

So which of these...did the inventors need Darwinism to invent?
??????? Who said Darwinism was required for everything?

You seem to be making the same argument as Theodosius Dobzhansky, that "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution."
That's true and is consistent with what I stated....evolutionary theory is the unifying framework of the life sciences. Why you seem to think light bulbs and vacuum cleaners are within the life sciences is a mystery.

One question though...


In a list of major inventions and technologies since 1860, can you identify ones that were enabled by Darwinian insight, or by belief in an old earth?

(again, from kgov.com/fathers)
Yes. The discernment of genetic function (figuring out what specific genetic sequences do) is a direct result of evolutionary common ancestry.
 

6days

New member
Jose Fly said:
Creationism hasn't contributed a single thing to science in over a century, whereas evolutionary biology has.
Evolutionism.... the common ancestry belief system has only hindered science. That belief system has produced a long history of shoddy and false conclusions that were based on the belief system and not on research. The 'goo to you' belief has never produced a single medical advancement nor a single new technology.

Instead of helping people through science, the common ancestry beliefs have harmed people. Scientific racism / Darwinism has even been a major contributor to genocides and the eugenics movement.

(Jose...I likely won't answer your post on genetics until next week when I'm back with my computer.)

Jose Fly said:
Yes. The discernment of genetic function (figuring out what specific genetic sequences do) is a direct result of evolutionary common ancestry.
Nonsense. The discernment of genetic function is a direct result of increasing knowledge. Similar structures and similar functions are often controlled by similar genes.
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
Talk about begging the question...

Jonah, if you don't have anything to add to the conversation besides your fallacies and insults, or if you simply just want to bash any beliefs other than your own....

ac5764c4303bc752343de30dfbb34695.gif

What is the fallacy? That humans have been here for more than a few thousand years?
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
Oh, and Christian scientists understand many (if not most) things just fine in light of special creation. It's the evolutionists who are constantly being baffled, confused, startled, and confounded by discoveries.

Then their "understanding" is misunderstanding. Special creation is simply incorrect.
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
. Scientific racism / Darwinism has even been a major contributor to genocides.

And Christianity had nothing to do with the genocide of native Americans in both North and South America. All Darwin right---oh wait, several 100 years pre Darwin. Ah, but we won't mention that. Lets just take the Inca gold.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
What is the fallacy? That humans have been here for more than a few thousand years?

The fallacy is this:

Well we know you are incorrect because H. sapiens has been around for much more than "several thousand years". Until you realize and accept the real world you will remain woefully unable to understand.

Talk about begging the question...

Jonah, if you don't have anything to add to the conversation besides your fallacies and insults, or if you simply just want to bash any beliefs other than your own....

ac5764c4303bc752343de30dfbb34695.gif

It's called begging the question.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Then their "understanding" is misunderstanding. Special creation is simply incorrect.

Why is it incorrect? Why is their understanding misunderstanding? Saying something is incorrect doesn't make it incorrect.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Nonsense. The discernment of genetic function is a direct result of increasing knowledge. Similar structures and similar functions are often controlled by similar genes.
It's fascinating how you think just saying "Nuh uh" is a valid rebuttal.
 
Top