Evolution

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Gerald

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by brother Willi
why dont we see new life startin in my jelly jar?
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Leave it out of the refrigerator for a couple of weeks, and you'll see some "new life"...
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Originally posted by aharvey

Morphy,

Here's the deal. When Darwin's ideas began to take hold in the scientific community, fundamentalist Christians got up in arms and vigorously attacked "evolution." This was long before antibiotics, much less resistance to antibiotics, and the Biblical interpretation at the time held that all modern organisms occur in forms unchanged from when they were created. So these ancestors to modern YECs emphatically rejected evolution, natural selection, adaptation, the whole Darwinian story. But even though Darwin was not the first to discuss the possibility, his name became inextricably linked to the term "evolution;" ergo, the conflict became known as "Creationism vs. Evolution."

As interest in Darwin's ideas prompted vast amounts of new research, it became clear that organisms do change over time in response to environmental factors in pretty much the way that Darwin argued. Short-term changes in population genotypes, and the specific forces that triggered them, were soon impossible to deny. This created a quandary for Creationists, who I think gradually came to terms with these within-species changes but were still completely hostile to the idea that one species could evolve into another, a process that is actually called “speciation.� So the original "Creationism vs. Evolution" dichotomy was now clumsily inaccurate, as it implied a rejection of something they no longer had a problem with, and did not allude to the real issue (i.e., speciation). On the other hand, there was a lot of equity invested in the "creation vs. evolution" slogan. So, instead of replacing "creation vs. evolution" with a more accurate slogan, they have apparently decided to redefine the concept of "evolution" itself.

Part of the reason they went this route may have been a second awkward realization, namely that there are far more species, extant and extinct, than anyone had realized in Darwin's day. The notion of eight simple folk somehow bringing together millions of species onto a single ship, and keeping them fed, watered, cleaned, and healthy on a single ship for a year, was clearly impossible. This led to the uncomfortable conclusion that Noah's ark could not have held all the species of animals that we know exist or have existed, and therefore that some post-Flood speciation must have occured. That is, Creationism could no longer automatically equate "species" with "biblical kind" (i.e., created independently of all other kinds), and therefore even "creationism vs. speciation" wasn't exactly right.

At present, unfortunately, “biblical kind� is an ungrounded concept; no one has been able to determine how to identify the limits of a kind, and thus you can find YEC literature that approximates kinds with everything from species to domains. Nonetheless, it figures prominently in the new debate that is implied in the “Creation vs. Evolution� slogan as brandished here at TOL and other YEC strongholds. Specifically, any “change in population genotypes over time� that occurs within a biblical kind is NOT evolution, as you’ve been told here, it is “adaptation� (be aware that this is NOT how actual biologists use this term). “Evolution� is restricted to the transition from one biblical kind to another (ditto, of course). However, given that the origin of a biblical kind is by definition independent of all other biblical kinds, “evolution� defined this way is logically impossible.

Pretty clever, eh? “Evolution� is a concept that has now been defined out of existence by creationists, but it is a trivial version of “evolution� that no actual biologist would ever use. Keep this in mind when you read the YEC literature. Also realize that if you define an idea to be impossible, it will of course be impossible to find evidence in support of that idea, and you don’t really need to present evidence against that idea. What YECs really done, but seem much more reluctant to discuss, much less rant and rave about, is change the question to “How many times did life independently originate on Earth?� Evolutionary biologists would of course say the evidence suggest the answer is once; I hope you have better luck than me extracting an answer from creationists.
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1. Excuse me for not answering - I was working (I am a doctor and I sometimes I have to work 24 hours a day continously in hospital) and I had barely any time to respond.

2. I almost started thinking that 'the brightest audience in the country' was nothing but a myth, since I was either mocked or offended. It is you who made me think otherwise. As pastor Enyart says - 'praise the Lord!'.

3. To the point:
I've read your answer and I understood that in fact you approve evolution but you put some artificial boundaries, namely, you say that organisms have evolved but only in some limits called 'kinds'.

4. I don't get why do you put such artificial boudaries to evolution, namely, why do you say that genotypes may evolve but ONLY among the 'kinds'. Why do you think there are some boundaries for genes??? As far as we know biology all organisms living in the Earth use either DNA or RNA to code their genes. Do you really think, that the Lord put boudaries that some DNA or RNA mutation cannot appear in specific species???
Even if you say so, how about man putting arificial genes in bacterias to produce proteins specific for viruses (that how some vaccines are produced, for example vaccine against HBV virus)??? As far as we know biology, chemistry and physics there is no law saying it is impossible to replace specific nucleotides in specific DNA thread just because it could cause change in God's 'kinds'...

5. All in all - it seems you accept evolution... you just curb it...
 
J

Jukia

New member
Morphy:
I think you misunderstood a harvey. His reference to "kinds" was a reference to a position that many fundamentalist Christians take. You can wait for his response but I am pretty sure that a harvey does not subscribe to the "kinds" argument. He is, I believe, a scientist. He appears to be one of the better technically informed people on this board.

As far as Enyart's "brightest audience in the country" is concerned--don't bet the farm on it.

One of my daughters is an MD, I can appreciate the time you guys put in.
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi

"How many times did life independently originate on Earth?� Evolutionary biologists would of course say the evidence suggest the answer is once; I hope you have better luck than me extracting an answer from creationists. "

i think once can break the bank with odds makers.:D
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Nobody knows how many times.
It is difficult do define 'life'. Depending on how you define 'life' it may happen that computer viruses are 'alive'... What we suspect for sure is that some primitive organisms (pre-bacteria or whatever you want to call them) have gained the possibility to pass their genes to posterity. Nothing else is needed to prove evolution is true...
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Re: Re: Evolution

Re: Re: Evolution

Originally posted by Gerald

Well, there are some theists who deny that bacteria actually cause disease, and attribute such things to demonic activity.
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I think we can disregard them as nuts...

If anybody says bacteria may not cause any diseases he is not a person to debate with. He is nothing but a moron...
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Originally posted by aharvey

"All life shares a common ancestor" is the same thing as "Life originated once." So animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, all share a common ancestor if you go back far enough.
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You're perfectly right...


Originally posted by aharvey
But you must be aware that we're not talking a rock spontaneously popping out a fully formed modern cell.
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It has taken 3.000.000.000 years to create a modern cell. 3.000.000.000 years ago it was just a very primitive organism with first primitive ability to multiply somehow.

Originally posted by aharvey
And in any case, in your view what raw materials did God use to form living material?
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Exactly the same as we know today: atoms, molecules, quarks and so on...

Originally posted by aharvey
Was it living or non-living? Why is it easier to imagine life being formed from non-living material many separate times rather than just once?
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A million-dollar question: what is life??? Is life something that can multiple and pass it's genes to posterity? If yes, then computer viruses are 'alive'!!! And it means WE, humans, are creators...

Originally posted by aharvey
So how many times did God create life from scratch?
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Nobody knows how many times life arouse from the scratch. And the question is: did it need a God to did it?
 
brother Willi

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Morphy

Nobody knows how many times.
It is difficult do define 'life'. Depending on how you define 'life' it may happen that computer viruses are 'alive'... What we suspect for sure is that some primitive organisms (pre-bacteria or whatever you want to call them) have gained the possibility to pass their genes to posterity. Nothing else is needed to prove evolution is true...
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got a picture?

maybe some left over "soup" you can show?
 
brother Willi

brother Willi

New member
Originally posted by Morphy

It has taken 3.000.000.000 years to create a modern cell. 3.000.000.000 years ago it was just a very primitive organism with first primitive ability to multiply somehow.
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well, if life was created, then we dont need those millions of years to go from non life, to the first real life.

ummm
any evidence for that very first step?
 
Gerald

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by brother Willi

UMMMMM

life that didnt contaminate the jelly, or is the jelly.

try it:thumb:
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I won't eat anything you've had any contact with...
 
N

niceval4u

New member
ref evolution

ref evolution

When God created the earth He made it good, Genesis 1:1-2:3.
When Adam sinned he brought death and corruption upon the earth, this accounts for all the bacteria.
Val
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi

got a picture?

maybe some left over "soup" you can show?
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Do you have any picture (eg. photo) of God? No? So why do you think God exists?

You don't need to have pictures of everything. I don't have any picture of Thyranosaurus rex and I know it existed! About month ago I didn't have any picture of my babe and my wife and I were sure she was pregnant!

My point is if you have some knowledge how processes take place in the world you may suspect what was before... For example if it is raining you know for sure that some water vaporized earlier and created clouds. When you see living organisms evolving at the very moment you may suspect the same happened before. Therefore it is enough to have just 1 pre-bacterial cell in proper enviroment in order to have billions of species billions of years later...
 
N

niceval4u

New member
Yes there was dinasors that lived on the earth, but that does not say they lived billions of years ago.
From what I know from my bible is that God created the earth and saw that it was good. It sin corruption (bacteria is corruption) that brought death onto the earth.
Love
Val
 
J

Jukia

New member
Val: Try again, without the bacteria in your gut, you may have major digestive issues. Without bacteria in the environment nothing would ever break down. What am I missing here??
 
J

Jukia

New member
brother Willi:
Still waiting for some response from you as to how old you think the earth is, how you arive at that conclusion and how old the Bible says it is. Thanks
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Originally posted by brother Willi

well, if life was created, then we dont need those millions of years to go from non life, to the first real life.

ummm
any evidence for that very first step?
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Even if life was created by god and even if the Earth is only 6000 years old or so the fact that evolution takes place is UNDENIABLE... If growing bacterial resistance to antibiotics is not an example of evolution then I don't know how you can explain this phenomenon.

Evidence for the first step. Give me a few million years, a huge lab and I will show you the first step.
 
Morphy

Morphy

New member
Originally posted by niceval4u

Yes there was dinasors that lived on the earth, but that does not say they lived billions of years ago.
From what I know from my bible is that God created the earth and saw that it was good. It sin corruption (bacteria is corruption) that brought death onto the earth.
Love
Val
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Hmmmm...

So when did dinosaurs live? A few thousands years ago? If yes - tell me why we can find bones which are few thousands years old and we have never found any dino's bones??? So far only what we have found is fossilized - it means dino's remnants turned into stone. And how long it takes to fossilize something? 500 years? 1000? 5000? Or maybe 60.000.000? I guess at least a few million years...

Bacteria... Do you really think bacteria are god's punishment? Well, can you show me at least one organism, other than bacteria, able to produce vitamin B12?

I'll save your time - only bacteria can produce vitamin B12. This example alone means that if there were no bacteria no human being would be able to stay alive. Of course there are many more bacteria helping us in a lot of different ways, mostly by producing vitamins.

And if only bacteria are responsible for evil, how about viruses? How about cancers?

Let me give you a piece of advice: restrain from medical comments if you don't know the matter whatsoever.
 
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