ECT Ephesians 1:4

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Quite deep, little Nicky. Teach us how to debate. Please, dwarf?

Your method of debate is just to say a lot of nonsense in the hope that no one will notice that you had no answer to the fact that the Scriptures reveal that some people were ordained to salvation PRIOR to them believing:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

There is a saying among lawyers that if you can't argue the facts then argue the law. And if you can't argue the law then argue the facts. And if you can't argue either then pound on the table!

You are nothing but a table pounder, sonny boy.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Your method of debate is just to say a lot of nonsense in the hope that no one will notice that you had no answer to the fact that the Scriptures reveal that some people were ordained to salvation PRIOR to them believing:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

There is a saying among lawyers that if you can't argue the facts then argue the law. And if you can't argue the law then argue the facts. And if you can't argue either then pound on the table!

You are nothing but a table pounder, sonny boy.

Slower:I do not debater bible correctors/agnostics/mystics, such as yourself, bible blender. Get a pair of specs, gnome.

And quit trying to imitate me, Nicky, with your "a table pounder" quote. You can't pull it off like me, troll.


why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

Why do you close your eyes to the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is described as being "elect," as are angels, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is described as a "door?"

How did I do?See how that works, engager in sophistry, tricks, trap questions?


The mutt engages in sophistry, with his trap questions, as the troll knows very well, that I/most do not dispute that does the bible(even though he is not a bible believer) does decribe the salvation of individuals as being "ordained." The issue is, the meaning of the term, "ordained," in the context of the verse/surrounding verses.

He knows that; but he is a deceiving, pathetic old man.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Sonny boy, why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Those who believed were ordained to salvation BEFORE they believed.
If one has salvation before they believe, then belief is not necessary to be saved.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The mutt engages in sophistry, with his trap questions, as the troll knows very well, that I/most do not dispute that does the bible(even though he is not a bible believer) does decribe the salvation of individuals as being "ordained." The issue is, the meaning of the term, "ordained," in the context of the verse/surrounding verses.

Sonny boy says that the issue is the meaning of the term "ordained" but at the same time he does not say how that word should be understood in the context.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Does it differ from what you said here?

There is really no foreknowledge with God because He lives in the ever present "now."

God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. This principle has long been understood within Calvinist circles. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance"
(Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

The LORD sees all the events in history with one glance. So any passages which speak of His foreknowledge is not to be taken literally.

And so with the LORD it is true that the moment when someone believes is with Him also the same moment which can be said to be before the world began. But no one is saved in "time" until he believes. And the following verse is using figurative language and from what is said we can know that no one is chosen until they believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"
(1 Thess.2:13).​
 

Danoh

New member
Yes, indeed, God foresaw who would believe and chose them

This makes clearer what Romans 8:29-31 is talking about

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Predestinate being defined as "marking out beforehand" not the common idea of predetermining who will be a believer and who will not be

Yep - I had Romans 8 in mind.

Ephesians is a sequel to Romans, thus, why Romans ends on a mention of The Mystery Paul then elaborates on in much greater detail in Ephesians: which likewise contains much that is a summary of much gone into in greater detail by Paul in Romans.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

Eph. 2:8,9.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
There is really no foreknowledge with God because He lives in the ever present "now."


Hi , and in John 19:30 these word finish that verse , IT IS FINISH / TELEO and is in the Greek perfect tense , PASSIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD !!

#1 The Indicative Mood means verse 30 is a FACT !!

#2 The PASSIVE VOICE means it is God causing the action !

#3 The PREFECT TENSE means God died for SINS , PAST , PRESENT and FUTURE !!

That takes foreknowledge !! Heb 9:15 !!

dan p
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Sonny boy says that the issue is the meaning of the term "ordained" but at the same time he does not say how that word should be understood in the context.

You just lied, mutt.
why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

The mutt engages in sophistry, with his trap questions, as the troll knows very well, that I/most do not dispute that does the bible(even though he is not a bible believer) does describe the salvation of individuals as being "ordained." The issue is, the meaning of the term, "ordained," in the context of the verse/surrounding verses.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The mutt engages in sophistry, with his trap questions, as the troll knows very well, that I/most do not dispute that does the bible(even though he is not a bible believer) does describe the salvation of individuals as being "ordained." The issue is, the meaning of the term, "ordained," in the context of the verse/surrounding verses.

Again you talk big but once again you refuse to tell us what the word "ordained" means at Acts 13:48.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Again you talk big but once again you refuse to tell us what the word "ordained" means at Acts 13:48.

You just lied, mutt-again.
why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

Why do you close your eyes to the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is described as being "elect," as are angels, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is described as a "door?"

How did I do?See how that works, engager in sophistry, tricks, trap questions?


The mutt engages in sophistry, with his trap questions, as the troll knows very well, that I/most do not dispute that does the bible(even though he is not a bible believer) does describe the salvation of individuals as being "ordained." The issue is, the meaning of the term, "ordained," in the context of the verse/surrounding verses.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
johnny boy doesn't want to tell us what the word "ordained" at Acts 13:48 means so he just posts a bunch of nonsense in the hope that no one will notice that he has no answer.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
johnny boy doesn't want to tell us what the word "ordained" at Acts 13:48 means so he just posts a bunch of nonsense in the hope that no one will notice that he has no answer.

Little weakling elf Jerreeee just lied again.

You just lied, mutt-again.
why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

Why do you close your eyes to the truth that the Lord Jesus Christ is described as being "elect," as are angels, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is described as a "door?"

How did I do?See how that works, engager in sophistry, tricks, trap questions?


The mutt engages in sophistry, with his trap questions, as the troll knows very well, that I/most do not dispute that does the bible(even though he is not a bible believer) does describe the salvation of individuals as being "ordained." The issue is, the meaning of the term, "ordained," in the context of the verse/surrounding verses.


And start exercising, lifting weights, little wimp. You look quite anemic, frail, confused old man, in those "pics" on those sites from which you've been banned.

Tell all of TOL why you were banned, sower of discord, from www.christianforums.com.


"We see" that you have no answer.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Again you talk big but once again you refuse to tell us what the word "ordained" means at Acts 13:48.


Hi Jerry and the Greek word in Acts 13:48 , ORDAIN / TASSO can be translated by the following English words , APPOINT , ORDAIN , DETERMINE , PUT IN ORDER , TO ARRANGE , or to ASSIGN !!

Now you know Jerry !!

What is the big deal ??

dan p
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
As both Jerry and John point out, God's foreknowledge is accurate and true.

God could, because of His foreknowledge of our lives, choose us because we were as Romans 4:17 declares foregone conclusions.

Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


This very concept explains

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

perfectly. Though Jesus Christ did not literally exist before he was conceived and born, Matthew 1:18, he was a foregone conclusion in the foreknowledge of God.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Though Jesus Christ did not literally exist before he was conceived and born, Matthew 1:18, he was a foregone conclusion in the foreknowledge of God.

Then why did He speak of being from heaven?:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins"
(Jn.8:23-24).​

Why would we read the following about the Lord Jesus if He did not even exist until He was born of Mary?:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven"
(Jn.3:13).​

If the Lord Jesus did not exist until He was born of Mary then explain how He could have been the author of creation?:

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds"
(Heb.1:2).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).​

Of course the Lord Jesus is God, as witnessed by Paul's words here:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).​
 
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