ECT Ephesians 1:4

[oatmeal]

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How is it that God could choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we did not exist until we wore conceived and born?

We did not "pre exist"

So how could He know us?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How is it that God could choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we did not exist until we wore conceived and born?

There is really no foreknowledge with God because He lives in the ever present "now."

God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. This principle has long been understood within Calvinist circles. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

The LORD sees all the events in history with one glance. So any passages which speak of His foreknowledge is not to be taken literally.

And so with the LORD it is true that the moment when someone believes is with Him also the same moment which can be said to be before the world began. But no one is saved in "time" until he believes. And the following verse is using figurative language and from what is said we can know that no one is chosen until they believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (1 Thess.2:13).​

 

[john w]

Romans 4 KJV

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[Tambora]

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How is it that God could choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we did not exist until we wore conceived and born?

We did not "pre exist"

So how could He know us?

Excellent answer by John W.

Romans 4 KJV

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Not to mention that one most certainly can claim that they will reward every child of theirs with loyalty and protection without having to know in advance how many children he will have.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 4 KJV

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

I don't know how that can be true since it was real people who were ordained to salvation before the world began:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

They were ordained to eternal life before they believed.

 

[john w]

I don't know how that can be true since it was real people who were ordained to salvation before the world began:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

They were ordained to eternal life before they believed.

Why did you misquote me, Shugart, on another thread, when you posted me allegedly saying?:

Paul is just a two-bit flunky

This is what I said:

You have not yet given any evidence that:

-the present dispensation began at Acts 2

-Paul is just a two-bit flunky

-all of Hebrews-Revelation, including its doctrine, apply to the boc, and that "the second time"/second coming=the rapture

-that "it all says the same thing"

Why would you do that, Shugart?

 

[Danoh]

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How is it that God could choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we did not exist until we wore conceived and born?

We did not "pre exist"

So how could He know us?

What the passage is actually asserting is that before the foundation the world God determined in Himself that He would choose those who trusted in His Son to a specific purpose in Him.

As to what purpose in them in His Son?

That such would be holy or separated from this world in His Son, and that in contrast to the world, in His eyes they would be without blame in His Son.

In other words, before the foundation of the world, God determined in Himself that He would love those who one day trusted in His Son, in the same way He loves His Son.

All that to what intended end?

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom. 5:6-8

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why did you misquote me, Shugart, on another thread, when you posted me allegedly saying?:

I quoted your words directly from your post.

On the other hand, you quoted me saying things I never said.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In other words, before the foundation of the world, God determined in Himself that He would love those who one day trusted in His Son, in the same way He loves His Son.

He chose individuals:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Individuals were ordained to salvation before they believed.

 

[john w]

I quoted your words directly from your post.

On the other hand, you quoted me saying things I never said.

No, you confused, lying old man. I caught you misquoting me, deleting most of my post, like you delete verses/words from the bible, so stuff your deceit.

You posted me allegedly saying:

Paul is just a two-bit flunky

This is what I said:

You have not yet given any evidence that:

-the present dispensation began at Acts 2

-Paul is just a two-bit flunky

-all of Hebrews-Revelation, including its doctrine, apply to the boc, and that "the second time"/second coming=the rapture

-that "it all says the same thing"

Thus, I was challenging you, as to why you thought "Paul is just a two-bit flunky," and you quoted what I said, in isolation, making it look as if I was arguing that ""Paul is just a two-bit flunky."





Why would you do that, Shugart? I will tell you why:Because you are a deceitful punk, having no respect on TOL, as most laugh at you. with . This is not the first time you've done this, you little, weasel old man. I did the same, in response to your deceit. Try it again, Shugart, and I will again "quoted me saying things I never said," like you did to me, more than once, and report you.


This is why you have been banned from scores of forums, including www.christianforums.com. Knock it off Shugart. You have been put on notice, you devious little loser, weasel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is why you have been banned from scores of forums, including www.christianforums.com. Knock it off Shugart. You have been put on notice, you devious little loser, weasel.

And what if I don't knock it off?

Are you going to tell your mommie on me?

Sonny boy, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen!

 

[john w]

He chose individuals:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Individuals were ordained to salvation before they believed.

FBO bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics, like Nicky Shugart...

I rarely post links, like Shugart does, as they comprise 98% of what he "posts." But the GSE does a fine job in clearing up the fog re. Acts 13:48 KJV.

https://faithalone.org/magazine/y2007/2jan07.html


Any hint of "predestination," in the Calvinist "narrow" interepretation of "ordained," here?:

Acts 10 KJV
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Acts 17 KJV

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


The Lord Jesus Christ was "predestined?"

Acts 14 KJV
23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Elders "predestined?"

Acts 16 KJV
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Decrees are "predestined?"

 

[john w]

And what if I don't knock it off?

Are you going to tell your mommie on me?

Sonny boy, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen!

More of his spam cliches. Knock off misquoting me, you devious little elf, gnome.

Tell all of TOL, you devious old man, why you've been banned, from numerous sites. Go ahead, you weasel.

 

[DAN P]

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How is it that God could choose us in him before the foundation of the world if we did not exist until we wore conceived and born?

We did not "pre exist"

So how could He know us?

Hi , and in Eph 1:4 the first verb is HE HATH CHOSEN / EKIEGOMAI it happens in time PAST to the Greek AOTIST TENSE and this CHOSEN , CHOOSE , TO PICK Happened BEFORE / PRO the OVER THROW / KATAABOLE which points to Gen 1:1 and 2 !!

So read 2 Tim 1:9 which is mind blowing as it has more information as to our choosing BEFORE /PRO the AGES !!

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

There is really no foreknowledge with God because He lives in the ever present "now."

God, being both infinite and eternal, is not bound by either space or time, as we are. This principle has long been understood within Calvinist circles. William Ames (1576-1655) was one of the foremost of Reformed thinkers, often known as "the Learned Doctor Ames" because of his great intellectual stature among Puritans, said the following:

"There is properly only one act of the will in God because in Him all things are simultaneous and there is nothing before or after. So there is only decree about the end and means, but for the manner of understanding we say that, so far as intention is concerned, God wills the end before the means" [emphasis mine](William Ames, The Marrow of Theology, translation and introduction by John, Dystra, Eudsen, [Boston: The Pilgrim Press, 1968], 153-154).
​

According to Ames all things in the eternal state are "simultaneous and there is nothing before or after." This idea that all things are "simultaneous" with God was expressed by another prominent Calvinist author, Loraine Boettner:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

The LORD sees all the events in history with one glance. So any passages which speak of His foreknowledge is not to be taken literally.

And so with the LORD it is true that the moment when someone believes is with Him also the same moment which can be said to be before the world began. But no one is saved in "time" until he believes. And the following verse is using figurative language and from what is said we can know that no one is chosen until they believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (1 Thess.2:13).​

Indeed, God inhabits all eternity so that from His perspective the past and the future is a real as the present.

Yet from our perspective, He does indeed have foreknowledge and the wisdom to use it wisely (forewisdom?)

He foresaw who would believe even from before the foundations of the world and extended his favor to us even before we literally existed, although we did exist in God's foreknowledge and as John W. points out, calls those things which be not as thought they were.

 

[oatmeal]

Romans 4 KJV

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

There are many examples of events, believers, etc that God has called which be not as though they were.

All the prophecies concerning Jesus Christ fall into that category starting with Genesis 3:15

Adam and Eve did not have any children at that point, yet God speaks of the seed of the woman

 

[oatmeal]

Excellent answer by John W.




Not to mention that one most certainly can claim that they will reward every child of theirs with loyalty and protection without having to know in advance how many children he will have.

God's care for us began way way back.

Even as a couple, yet to be married can talk of having children, or as a young married couple preparing for a future child, or when pregnant, they do not wait till the baby is born to prepare a place for the babe.

God most certainly has most lovingly and carefully prepared for us, I John 3:1-2, His children, His sons and daughters. I Peter 1:23, not sons by adoption, like Israel, but sons and daughters by His own seed, not the corruptible seed of earthly fathers, but incorruptible

 

[oatmeal]

What the passage is actually asserting is that before the foundation the world God determined in Himself that He would choose those who trusted in His Son to a specific purpose in Him.

As to what purpose in them in His Son?

That such would be holy or separated from this world in His Son, and that in contrast to the world, in His eyes they would be without blame in His Son.

In other words, before the foundation of the world, God determined in Himself that He would love those who one day trusted in His Son, in the same way He loves His Son.

All that to what intended end?

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom. 5:6-8

Yes, indeed, God foresaw who would believe and chose them

This makes clearer what Romans 8:29-31 is talking about

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Predestinate being defined as "marking out beforehand" not the common idea of predetermining who will be a believer and who will not be

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Decrees are "predestined?"

Sonny boy, why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Those who believed were ordained to salvation BEFORE they believed.

 

[john w]

Sonny boy, why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Those who believed were ordained to salvation BEFORE they believed.

The confused gnome John 3 Nicky Shugart, is getting so old, he is losing his vision.

Slower:FBO bible believers, not bible correctors/agnostics/mystics, like Nicky Shugart...

Sonny boy, why do you close your eyes to the truth that the salvation of individuals is described as being "ordained"?

The little elf is so pitiful, he does not realize that the TOL audience laugh at his kindergarten cliches, such as "why do you close your eyes to the truth..."

And notice all the gnome does, is assert, " why do you close your eyes to the truth that the (fill in the blank of any verse)?."

Quite deep, little Nicky. Teach us how to debate. Please, dwarf?


Come on, old man. Give us a similar, "why do you close your eyes to the truth that the truth is, the bible is true?"

You're a clown, a little pest, gnat. Shew, Nicky.