People will have even a harder time convincing others that Roe vs. Wade is evil if pro-lifers argue that its a necessary to perform an abortion in medical emergencies.Crow said:
Enyart calls for pro-lifers to oppose John Roberts nomination
- Thread starter Bob Enyart
- Start date
- Status
Knight said:
Knight, how, then, would you address a person who came to you with the concern that they don't believe in abortion on demand, but would not want to have their wife or loved one die in a medical emergency?
I would tell them the truth, that Rowe vs Wade had nothing to do with medical emergencies, that ruptured tubal pregnancies were treated before Rowe vs Wade, that a woman who has a hemorrage due to a ruptured placenta isn't being treated because of Rowe vs Wade, and will have the treatment she needs after it is overturned. I would tell them, truthfully, that Rowe vs Wade never saved a single life, that the notion that it has is a lie perpetuated by those who wish to murder the unborn because they don't want them, and that Rowe vs Wade's only accomplishment has been to kill thousands every year that it has been in existance.
The problem with your explanation is your "treatment" involves the intentional killing of a innocent baby.Crow said:
I would tell them its a false dilemma!
I would tell them there is no reason we shouldn't do everything in our power to save both patients. I would tell them abortion is medical laziness and will never advance possible solutions to these rare and tragic cases.
Knight said:
OK, then how would you go about saving a 5 week ruptured tubal pregnancy?
I'm saying that straight up you cannot save a 5 week tubal pregnancy at this time. It doesn't mean that people aren't working hard to push back the age at which a child reaches viability. It means that we haven't gotten even near there yet.
There is nothing that can be done at this point to save that child. Nothing. It's not being lazy to be unable to save that child. There is, literally, nothing to be done at this point for that child. Believe me, if there were, it would be tried. And when there is a means available, it will be used.
We don't have those techniques and knowledge yet. I wish we did. With all that has been acomplished in our lifetimes, it's hard to believe that so much still is beyond our grasp.
I've worked in this field a few years, and I've seen the frustration all around when you hit the wall. When you reach the very limit of what you can do and wish that you could somehow do more. What you are preceiving as laziness is inability.
At one point, there was nothing we could do to save kids with leukemia. Now we can save most of them. The medical profession didn't suddenly get motivated. They got into their labs and found cytotoxic agents which worked on rapidly proliferating cells and came up with stuff to give those kids that could give them a chance. In the meantime, kids died of leukemia because there was literally nothing to offer them until research came up with a way.
We're at that same point with tubal pregnancies and other very early pregnancies. We have nothing to work with yet.
Freak
New member
:bang: What did I mean when I used that phrase, Crow?Crow said:
:doh: What are you smoking!!!! God is the one gives life and abortion flies in the face of God's eternal law!!!
Crow, please answer as everyone would like to see if you would like to rationalize murder in some circumstances...
IKilling a baby in the womb is unconscionable under any circumstances.Yes or No?
Abortion is not even biblically permissible in the so-called "life of the mother" cases, true or false??
Why the Life of the Mother is Not a Valid Exception for Abortion
http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/lifeofmother.html
keypurr
Well-known member
Has any one found scripture as to "When human life begins"? Is is at conception? Is it when he takes his first breath? The abortion issue is much more complex than most make it. First define human life, when the soul is born, then abortion. Let the scripture reading begin.
Good Luck and God Bless
Good Luck and God Bless
keypurr said:
Keypurr, it's not about when human life begins. When the egg is fertilized, a specific, unique human being is created. All you can see is a tiny speck, almost invisible to the naked eye, but that speck is human. You don't need scripture to see that, science alone can tell you that. But there are scriptures that tell us that life begins within the womb, the ones about how John the Baptist leapt in the womb when he recognized Jesus.
This is about situations in which a mother and the baby are both dying. In a hemorraging previa, both are losing their blood supply, bleeding to death. The same situation occurrs in a ruptured tubal pregnancy, but not quite as quickly.
It's about whether or not you save one life because you cannot save both.
keypurr
Well-known member
Crow said:
I understand science, but this a theology forum, not a science one.
My thoughts are if you are debating killing a human being, because of scripture, then define when a human being comes into full exsistance using scripture. Is an Acorn an Oak tree? When does it become a tree? Same with humans.
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job 7:7 Oh remember that my life is a breath: Mine eye shall no more see good.
I don't claim to be smart enough to have the answer to when the egg becomes a chicken, but it is questionable to me to call abortion all wrong when the health of the mother is at stake. I think a human being is much more than a body of meat.
Do you know much about biology? That acorn has the exact same chromosomal make up as it will if it gets to be 100 feet tall. It is an oak. It is not an oak tree yet and doesn't look like one, that is one stage of it's development, just as sapling and acorn are stages. If you think about it, we go quite a few changes in the visible part of our lives, from our birth to our death. It's not strange that the begining of our life looks different than the end. Conception to death is the spectrum of a human life.keypurr said:
The Genesis quote refers to an unique situation--creation. Since then, humans have reproduced by the natural processes God created. So Genesis 2:7 could not be expected to necessarily apply to those who come about by birth as opposed to direct creation. I'm not sure what you are getting at with the Job quote--I'm just back from the night shift.
Science has it's place in a theology situation. What should we do, recoil from discovery like Dracula from a cross? Science helps us to understand the world He put us in. And it's let us see the accuracy of the scriptures through archaeology.
Back to the soul. God has not seen fit to record the interval between Adam's creation and when He gave him a soul. Let's look at Eve. There's no mention of her receiving her soul, but it would be kinda strange to give Adam a soul-less zombie helpmate.
Personally I believe that God gave Adam a soul as soon as he came into existance. I believe that's the same with us.
keypurr
Well-known member
Crow, I don't necessarly disagree with you. The point I am trying to make is man became a living soul ONLY after he received the breath of life. So that is enough to question when the life of a TOTAL human really starts. Personaly, I am leaning to the breath idea. But I keep my mind open on the issue. OT readings seem to point that all living creatures have the breath of God in them.Crow said:
God Bless, have a good day.
elected4ever
New member
Here we go again. Life is not sacred unless it is God's life. Only those persons born of the spirit have this life. All others are dead to God. Our citizenship is in heaven and not earthly.
We are the ones who insist in righteous behavior, not the world or its governments. The world is essentially lawless and adopts standards that suits itself. They have every right to do that without consultation with God. They, being dead to God have no sense of righteousness, only morality and they will change that by adopting lower standards and will find a path to the bottom MAN DOES WHAT IS GOOD IN HIS OWN EYES!
The born again child of God has a higher standard in that we are born in righteousness and have the mind of Christ. We seek to raise the standard of morality and worn man of a sure and certain judgment to come. Why? Because we love our fellow man and do not wish to see individuals or our country destroyed. When those who are responsible for the message fail to worn the wicked of their wicked ways we suffer right along with the wicked when judgment falls upon them. It rains on the just and the unjust. Our souls become vexed and we weep with many tears.
The government of the United States has told us that they do not wish to retain God in the halls of power but had rather bend to the will of the dead too Christ. The voice of the righteous has been loud and complaining. We have been heard and not ignored. The power we represent has been co opted by devious men and we sit in silence as those who represent us actively disobey the very law that they have sworn to defend. As a result we are compromised because we defend with vigor their right to do so.
Abortion, homosexuality, adultery and grand theft are plagues upon our nation. We are visited with these plagues because we as a collective nation, have given our approval to those who have catered to our appetites. These plaques did not happen over night but are the results of what we have approved off over an extended length of time.
In order to rid ourselves of these plagues we must repent of the evil we have done and change our minds about the policies that have been unlawful and have enriched us unjustly."If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and seek my face, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land", says the Lord but we will not do that. We had rather complain about the plagues and leave the rest undone.
We are the ones who insist in righteous behavior, not the world or its governments. The world is essentially lawless and adopts standards that suits itself. They have every right to do that without consultation with God. They, being dead to God have no sense of righteousness, only morality and they will change that by adopting lower standards and will find a path to the bottom MAN DOES WHAT IS GOOD IN HIS OWN EYES!
The born again child of God has a higher standard in that we are born in righteousness and have the mind of Christ. We seek to raise the standard of morality and worn man of a sure and certain judgment to come. Why? Because we love our fellow man and do not wish to see individuals or our country destroyed. When those who are responsible for the message fail to worn the wicked of their wicked ways we suffer right along with the wicked when judgment falls upon them. It rains on the just and the unjust. Our souls become vexed and we weep with many tears.
The government of the United States has told us that they do not wish to retain God in the halls of power but had rather bend to the will of the dead too Christ. The voice of the righteous has been loud and complaining. We have been heard and not ignored. The power we represent has been co opted by devious men and we sit in silence as those who represent us actively disobey the very law that they have sworn to defend. As a result we are compromised because we defend with vigor their right to do so.
Abortion, homosexuality, adultery and grand theft are plagues upon our nation. We are visited with these plagues because we as a collective nation, have given our approval to those who have catered to our appetites. These plaques did not happen over night but are the results of what we have approved off over an extended length of time.
In order to rid ourselves of these plagues we must repent of the evil we have done and change our minds about the policies that have been unlawful and have enriched us unjustly."If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and seek my face, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land", says the Lord but we will not do that. We had rather complain about the plagues and leave the rest undone.
Last edited:
keypurr
Well-known member
That is not what I am implying friend. I am trying to inject science with scripture. A vegtable is life, but would you want to be one? What make a human superior is its ability to think and solve. A complete human is made up of much more that meat. A fetus is a potential human being. An acorn is not a tree even though it call the ability to become one. Who draws the line as to when a human becomes a PERSON? I do not think man has the ability to answer that.elected4ever said:
elected4ever
New member
If you are talking about valuing life then that is deferent.keypurr said:
At no time is the egg a part of a womans body. The woman does have a choice in that she may decide not to fertilize the egg. When that choice is taken from her by rape that does not change anything. Once the egg becomes fertile and ataches it self and begins to be nourished it is life and should be valued as any other human life would be if that person was born and conducting life's business. The life in the womb is not a parasite and should not be treated as such.
Taking human life is murder if that life is ended at the choice of another person and the woman is another person so abortion is murder. The only exceptions to that rule is the taking of life in self defense and the just execution of a criminal by the state. The state should be in the business of defending life and not sanctioning the willy nilly sanctioning of murder of the defenseless.
- Status