Enduring to the end... not for us in the body of Christ

[Lon]

Which gospel?

Kingdom, then and perhaps included "Death Burial Resurrection." Jesus certainly had this in mind. Disciples were very caught up in the Jewish Kingdom and coming of Messiah and had a difficult time grasping what He was telling them.

The time spoken of in Matt 24 is called the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble and it has not happened yet.

You are not alone on the full spectrum of Dispensationalists. Many prophecies have double fulfillment thus I have no problem with Jacob's trouble. Certainly many of those prophecies were fulfilled and I've yet "This generation shall not pass before" troubling my theology for needed of at least an immediate fulfillment on some part of it.

Perhaps you've missed the point of this thread.

That 'enduring to the end' is not for us? Or did you discussed a point yet I didn't catch??

 

[Right Divider]

Kingdom, then and perhaps included "Death Burial Resurrection."

They (the twelve) were preaching the gospel of the kingdom.
They (the twelve) never preached the gospel of the grace of God.

Jesus certainly had this in mind.

QUOTE please.

Disciples were very caught up in the Jewish Kingdom and coming of Messiah and had a difficult time grasping what He was telling them.

The gospel of the kingdom was about the kingdom of Israel (particularly its restoration).
So yes, they were "very caught up" in what Jesus told them to preach. They "grasped" exactly what Jesus was telling them.

It is you (and tons of others) that are confused about this topic.

You are not alone on the full spectrum of Dispensationalists.

There are a few of us that will believe the truth.

Many prophecies have double fulfillment thus I have no problem with Jacob's trouble.

Vague...

It's very nice that you "have no problem" with that prophecy.

Certainly many of those prophecies were fulfilled and I've yet "This generation shall not pass before" troubling my theology for needed of at least an immediate fulfillment on some part of it.

That statement was based on Israel's acceptance of their Messiah, which never happened.
Then God intervened with a previously unknown program called the body of Christ and the dispensation of the grace of God.

That 'enduring to the end' is not for us?

That is correct. Many of those in Churchianity make this "enduring to the end" a condition of salvation. That is FALSE and those that think that they are the ones that "have endurance" are proud and snobbish.

Or did you discussed a point yet I didn't catch??

Seems that you got the general idea. It's just too bad that you seem to fall in with the Churchianity crowd.

 

[Lon]

They (the twelve) were preaching the gospel of the kingdom.
They (the twelve) never preached the gospel of the grace of God.

QUOTE please.

Same book: Matthew 21From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.
You may have to take a moment here to cover the Mid Acts position. It makes sense under your belief/system that says the 12 never preached the gospel of Grace. Realize I said 'Death Burial and Resurrection' and not "Grace" or Grace alone. DBR is grace, as you've said in another thread too but I believe "I'm" following you. Reading this thread, might have to make this a bit clearer for posterity or put out a lot of little fires?

The gospel of the kingdom was about the kingdom of Israel (particularly its restoration).

Agreed

So yes, they were "very caught up" in what Jesus told them to preach. They "grasped" exactly what Jesus was telling them.

Again: 21From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.

Its another good teachable moment about Mid Acts if you want to take it here. I 'think' I'm catching most of it.

It is you (and tons of others) that are confused about this topic.

There 'may' be some little confusion yet, well, unless you were saying something different than "enduring to the end is not for us." I may not get every nuance of your particular take, but I'm pretty sure I get most of it just fine.

There are a few of us that will believe the truth.

Yep.

Vague...

It's very nice that you "have no problem" with that prophecy.

LOL, "Vague" but "very nice?" Funny stuff.

I literally posted verses and history 'with' immediate fulfillment. Can 'you' prove either of those wrong as fulfillment? I don't believe you can.

That statement was based on Israel's acceptance of their Messiah, which never happened.

That'd work, but remember they all 'did' face tribulation and were all put to death. As I said, same result, different supposition that presses it. I 'do' support your thread, just for a different reason: Much of it was indeed fulfilled.

Then God intervened with a previously unknown program called the body of Christ and the dispensation of the grace of God.

"Unknown" meaning? (Did Jesus know?)

That is correct. Many of those in Churchianity make this "enduring to the end" a condition of salvation. That is FALSE and those that think that they are the ones that "have endurance" are proud and snobbish.

I got it then. Sorry if I've become a distraction, not my intention.

Seems that you got the general idea. It's just too bad that you seem to fall in with the Churchianity crowd.

Not exactly. There aren't many that believe 'this generation shall not pass.' Rather, Mid Acts gives me another avenue for the context and I'm appreciative (may even change, be patient).

 

[Right Divider]

Same book: Matthew 21From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.

That Christ would die, be buried and resurrected was not a mystery (i.e., it's not the mystery of Christ that Paul speaks about).

Remember this passage:

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ​

The twelve had been preaching the gospel of the kingdom for years and yet they did not even know that Christ had to die.

You may have to take a moment here to cover the Mid Acts position. It makes sense under your belief/system that says the 12 never preached the gospel of Grace. Realize I said 'Death Burial and Resurrection' and not "Grace" or Grace alone. DBR is grace, as you've said in another thread too but I believe "I'm" following you. Reading this thread, might have to make this a bit clearer for posterity or put out a lot of little fires?

That's not a true statement "DBR is grace". The gospel of the grace of God includes the DBR, but there is much more to it than just that.

Again: 21From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.

Again, what does this have do with what you said earlier? Particularly this:

Disciples were very caught up in the Jewish Kingdom and coming of Messiah and had a difficult time grasping what He was telling them.

Its another good teachable moment about Mid Acts if you want to take it here. I 'think' I'm catching most of it.

There 'may' be some little confusion yet, well, unless you were saying something different than "enduring to the end is not for us." I may not get every nuance of your particular take, but I'm pretty sure I get most of it just fine.

When we in the body of Christ trust Christ for His death for our sins, we are saved. We have no need to "endure" anything. We are dead (baptized into His death).

LOL, "Vague" but "very nice?" Funny stuff.

You mentioned a "two fold meaning" but did not say what that was. That is VAGUE.

I literally posted verses and history 'with' immediate fulfillment.

Some was; some wasn't.

Can 'you' prove either of those wrong as fulfillment? I don't believe you can.

Not sure what you're talking about.

That'd work, but remember they all 'did' face tribulation and were all put to death.

There are many tribulation in life. Only one is the great tribulation (i.e., the time of Jacob's trouble).

As I said, same result, different supposition that presses it. I 'do' support your thread, just for a different reason: Much of it was indeed fulfilled.

Some yes; some no.

"Unknown" meaning? (Did Jesus know?)

I did NOT say "unknown meaning". Please read more carefully.

 

[Lon]

That Christ would die, be buried and resurrected was not a mystery (i.e., it's not the mystery of Christ that Paul speaks about).

Yes, am aware. Granted I've not really looked at Mid Acts before last year, but I have this part down. All I was saying is that He'd been telling the disciples He was going to die.

Remember this passage:

Luke 18:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(18:31) ¶ Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (18:32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (18:33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (18:34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. ​

Agree, why I said "except Jesus" there.

The twelve had been preaching the gospel of the kingdom for years and yet they did not even know that Christ had to die.

Right but you read it with me in Chapter 16, Peter took Him aside and said 'not going to happen.'

That's not a true statement "DBR is grace". The gospel of the grace of God includes the DBR, but there is much more to it than just that.

Well, remember I was saying that it was not in their minds but that Jesus would have, while giving them Matthew 24. Maybe it doesn't matter and is a distraction. If so, let me not hang up the thread on this.

Again, what does this have do with what you said earlier? Particularly this:

Simply that I was thinking about the difference of what they were being told, and the difference Jesus knew: How my mind was working through it, please forgive if an irrelevant distraction. Thank you.

When we in the body of Christ trust Christ for His death for our sins, we are saved. We have no need to "endure" anything. We are dead (baptized into His death).

Yes, I likely distracted the thread too much. I think this the thrust of your thread and it wasn't my intention to get too far off. I agree actually.

You mentioned a "two fold meaning" but did not say what that was. That is VAGUE.

Probably was. If it is pertinent to you, I'll explain further. If not, again, I apologize for distraction, was not my intention, just that I haven't traditionally been Mid Acts, but there are definitely times I agree, and even specifically because I believe it was 'for them' and not 'for us.' I just found it interesting that I in fact do agree with Mid Acts often enough, even if the details are different. Working on my theology...

Some was; some wasn't.

Not sure what you're talking about.

That there was fulfillment of a lot of the signs in Matthew 24, you agree with 'some yes' just below so...

There are many tribulation in life. Only one is the great tribulation (i.e., the time of Jacob's trouble).

Some yes; some no.

I did NOT say "unknown meaning". Please read more carefully.

Shoot. It'd be 'write more clearly' LOL> "Unknown" meaning? IOW, I meant "RD, who didn't know?" It isn't reading comprehension but quotation as the issue. Thanks for toughing it out with me! If I've said anything that 'helps' the thread, please take those as more important and ignore a bit where I flubbed it and ty. I was trying to simply say I find it interesting, not being MAD (at least that I'm aware of, a few and a couple of theologians I genuinely respect have said I seem to be one), that I have a lot of agreement so this is how the thread caught me.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, am aware. Granted I've not really looked at Mid Acts before last year, but I have this part down. All I was saying is that He'd been telling the disciples He was going to die.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Agree, why I said "except Jesus" there.

Again, what is the relevance?

Right but you read it with me in Chapter 16, Peter took Him aside and said 'not going to happen.'

Again, they did not understand that He must die. What is the relevance?

Shoot. It'd be 'write more clearly' LOL> "Unknown" meaning? IOW, I meant "RD, who didn't know?"

Nobody knew... it was HID in GOD.

Eph 3:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:9) And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

 

[Derf]

Sorry, I never replied to this.

Have you never read the two passages in question?

Matt 24:6-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(24:6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (24:7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (24:8) All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. (24:9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (24:10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (24:11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (24:12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.​

Those are the verses just before the "endure to the end, the same shall be saved".
What do you think that "enduring" and "saved" mean in THAT CONTEXT?

I have no idea, that's why I keep asking. What do you think it means?

 

[Lon]

What does that have to do with the topic?

relevance? relevance?

Meh, sorry, I'd hoped I might 'help' rather than hinder. Such was my desire but I've been working overtime, forgive the distraction. I'll just read it for a bit and get what you want me and others to get from the thread. I in NO WAY meant to hijack (at least when I'm awake, that's true). In Him

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry, I never replied to this.

I have no idea, that's why I keep asking. What do you think it means?

Let me tell you what it doesn't mean: saved by grace through faith.

 

[Derf]

Let me tell you what it doesn't mean: saved by grace through faith.

I figured that, but what does it mean? And does James mean the same thing, when he says "that kind of faith cannot save."

 

[Right Divider]

I figured that, but what does it mean?

It's about surviving the great tribulation and entering the kingdom.

And does James mean the same thing, when he says "that kind of faith cannot save."

No.

 

[Derf]

It's about surviving the great tribulation and entering the kingdom.

So, if you survive the great tribulation, it means you will survive the great tribulation?

No.

Then James is talking about the salvation Paul talks about? Or is it a third type?

 

[JudgeRightly]

The spread of the gospel and its consequences as well as the violence amped at this time in Rome (If I'm understanding your 'what' correctly).

This persecution was a part of something bigger that was happening. Do you know what that is?

Matthew 24:13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved.
That's a promise of comfort.

No, it's not. Not given the context.

Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Thus in my estimation, fulfilled as the Apostles and disciples were put to death (supports your premise if not exactly for the same idea, i.e. you may have said this because 'they were Jews' and this was 'to Jews.' I support it because of that, but more precisely because I believe Matthew 24 mostly fulfilled.

Again, you're missing the greater context of what was going on at the time.

Something that was put on hold due to a certain nation's rebellion against her King...

Several instances of 'this generation' fulfillment:
1)Stephen and the rest of the Apostles were killed, John persecuted.

2) Mat 24:19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days!

Perpetua and Felicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a hint: Jesus meant exactly what He said in Matthew 10:23.
Here's another hint: Jeremiah 18 applies to Israel just as much as it does other nations.

 

[Right Divider]

So, if you survive the great tribulation, it means you will survive the great tribulation?

Showing off your stupidity yet again?

Then James is talking about the salvation Paul talks about? Or is it a third type?

James says that works are required for salvation. Paul says the opposite.

 

[Derf]

Showing off you stupidity yet again?

James says that works are required for salvation. Paul says the opposite.

So, what is James' salvation saved from?

 

[Lon]

This persecution was a part of something bigger that was happening. Do you know what that is?

Culminating with Megiddo, the annihilation and dispersion of Israel?

No, it's not. Not given the context.

Meh, I'm okay with the disagreement. I 'think' I'm picking up where you are headed so I don't think it pertinent. I believe the context strongly supports the take, so if you want to discuss it out ask but I believe at this point, it has little to do with this thread and the important thrust.

Again, you're missing the greater context of what was going on at the time.

Something that was put on hold due to a certain nation's rebellion against her King...

Here's a hint: Jesus meant exactly what He said in Matthew 10:23.

Not that I'd question He meant exactly what He said. Do you see Chapter 10 as the first iteration of Chapter 24 (likely)? Was there immediate (or reasonably soon) fulfillment? Important because you believe chapter 24 (correct me if that wasn't your point) future. I would say this was only to the Disciples and Apostles but I may have only got half of what you are seeing at that time.

Here's another hint: Jeremiah 18 applies to Israel just as much as it does other nations.

Meaning Israel itself was about to be "wiped off the map" as it were? Megiddo etc?

 

[Lon]

Showing off you stupidity yet again?

Patience. From experience, "yes, if I'm not Mid Acts, a LOT of this I am (was) dense on."

James says that works are required for salvation. Paul says the opposite.

I believe I've finally grasped this from you and Clete and actually appreciate what you are saying. It took awhile. "Stupid" is okay but a horse-pill hard to get down. Do you have one of these plunger thingys?