Enduring to the end... not for us in the body of Christ

[Right Divider]

Many people try to make salvation by grace through faith contingent on “enduring to the end”. They do this by misunderstanding three passages in the “gospels” and taking them completely out of their context, Matt 10:16-39 & 24:3-28 and Mark 3:3-13

All three of these passages relate to Israel and their coming judgment (i.e., the time of Jacob’s trouble). They have nothing to do with the body of Christ and salvation by grace through faith.

Matt 10:16-39 (AKJV/PCE)

(10:16) ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (10:17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; (10:18) And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. (10:19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (10:20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. (10:21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death. (10:22) And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. (10:24) The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. (10:25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household? (10:26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. (10:27) What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops. (10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (10:29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. (10:30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. (10:31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. (10:32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. (10:33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (10:34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (10:35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (10:36) And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. (10:37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (10:38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (10:39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matt 24:3-28 (AKJV/PCE)

(24:3) ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (24:4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (24:5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (24:6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (24:7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (24:8) All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. (24:9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (24:10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (24:11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (24:12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand (24:16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (24:17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (24:18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (24:19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (24:23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. (24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (24:25) Behold, I have told you before. (24:26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. (24:27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mark 13:3-13 (AKJV/PCE)

(13:3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, (13:4) Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? (13:5) And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you: (13:6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many. (13:7) And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet. (13:8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows. (13:9) ¶ But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (13:10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (13:11) But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (13:12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (13:13) And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Derf]

Many people try to make salvation by grace through faith contingent on “enduring to the end”. They do this by misunderstanding three passages in the “gospels” and taking them completely out of their context, Matt 10:16-39 & 24:3-28 and Mark 3:3-13

All three of these passages relate to Israel and their coming judgment (i.e., the time of Jacob’s trouble). They have nothing to do with the body of Christ and salvation by grace through faith.

Matt 10:16-39 (AKJV/PCE)

(10:16) ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (10:17) But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; (10:18) And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. (10:19) But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (10:20) For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. (10:21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against [their] parents, and cause them to be put to death. (10:22) And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. (10:24) The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. (10:25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household? (10:26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. (10:27) What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops. (10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (10:29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. (10:30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. (10:31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. (10:32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. (10:33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (10:34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (10:35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (10:36) And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. (10:37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (10:38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (10:39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matt 24:3-28 (AKJV/PCE)

(24:3) ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (24:4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (24:5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (24:6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (24:7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (24:8) All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. (24:9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (24:10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (24:11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (24:12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand (24:16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (24:17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (24:18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (24:19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (24:20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (24:21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (24:23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. (24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (24:25) Behold, I have told you before. (24:26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. (24:27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mark 13:3-13 (AKJV/PCE)

(13:3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, (13:4) Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? (13:5) And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you: (13:6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many. (13:7) And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet. (13:8) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows. (13:9) ¶ But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. (13:10) And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (13:11) But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. (13:12) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (13:13) And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So, how much should we endure, if not to the end? Is it ok for Christians to give up at the first hint of persecution, and bow to Caesar? If not the first hint, what about the 3rd or 4th or 10th or 100th? When is it ok for a Christian to stop enduring?

 

[Right Divider]

So, how much should we endure, if not to the end?

I was discussing what the scripture actually means. It has a CONTEXT that most Christians ignore. Apparently, that includes you.

Is it ok for Christians to give up at the first hint of persecution, and bow to Caesar?

Irrelevant to the topic. Since you have no idea what it means to rightly divide the word of truth, you have no chance of understanding the true meaning of this passage.

If not the first hint, what about the 3rd or 4th or 10th or 100th? When is it ok for a Christian to stop enduring?

Confusion reigns with those that do not understand the difference between Christ's ministry to Israel and His current ministry to the body of Christ.

Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:​

​

Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

​

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

"Enduring to the end" has a CONTEXT... enduring WHAT until the END of WHAT?

 

[Derf]

I was discussing what the scripture actually means. It has a CONTEXT that most Christians ignore. Apparently, that includes you.

Irrelevant to the topic. Since you have no idea what it means to rightly divide the word of truth, you have no chance of understanding the true meaning of this passage.

Confusion reigns with those that do not understand the difference between Christ's ministry to Israel and His current ministry to the body of Christ.

Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:​

​

Matt 15:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

​

2Cor 5:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. (5:17) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he][ is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

"Enduring to the end" has a CONTEXT... enduring WHAT until the END of WHAT?

Right. So you are going to explain the context for me? We're talking about salvation, but I don't see anywhere that says Christians aren't supposed to endure, do you? So tell me, when is it ok for Christians not to endure?

 

[Right Divider]

Right. So you are going to explain the context for me?

Are you really willing to learn the truth or will this be your usual?

We're talking about salvation, but I don't see anywhere that says Christians aren't supposed to endure, do you?

So you want me to prove a negative? Where does Paul say that we, in the body of Christ, need to "endure to the end" to be saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH?

So tell me, when is it ok for Christians not to endure?

Again, you and your fake "discussion".

Endure WHAT to the end of WHAT?... Context, remember?

P.S.

Eph 2:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: ​

​

Salvation for the body of Christ by grace through faith does NOT require the endurance of anything to the end of anything.​

 

[Derf]

Are you really willing to learn the truth or will this be your usual?

So you want me to prove a negative? Where does Paul say that we, in the body of Christ, need to "endure to the end" to be saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH?

Again, you and your fake "discussion".

Endure WHAT to the end of WHAT?... Context, remember?

P.S.

Eph 2:8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: ​

​

Salvation for the body of Christ by grace through faith does NOT require the endurance of anything to the end of anything.​

Well, your point, if I understand it correctly, is that there is a difference between how a Jew is saved compared to a Christian, and the difference you are focusing on is that Jews must endure to the end, and Christians don't have to endure to the end of anything. Please correct me if I've got something wrong so far, but I think I'm even using your words.

So, if we don't have to endure anything to the end of anything, then you've answered my question--that we don't have to endure trials or temptations even in the slightest. So the early church was kind of gaslighting themselves in refusing to bow down to Caesar and being martyred for it, right?

 

[Right Divider]

Well, your point, if I understand it correctly, is that there is a difference between how a Jew is saved compared to a Christian, and the difference you are focusing on is that Jews must endure to the end, and Christians don't have to endure to the end of anything. Please correct me if I've got something wrong so far, but I think I'm even using your words.

My points are:

• The word "saved" does not have a singular meaning, but must be understood in its CONTEXT.
• The "saved" in:
  
  Matt 24:13 (AKJV/PCE)(24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
  
  is NOT talking about "eternal life". It is talking about entering the kingdom that Jesus was preaching was "at hand".
• Jesus' ministry while on earth, was focused tightly on the nation of Israel (i.e., His people) and the promises made to the fathers. Romans 15:8
• The body of Christ came later and is NOT the nation of Israel.
• The CONTEXT of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the "time of Jacob's trouble", also known as the tribulation.
  Jer 30:7 (AKJV/PCE)
  (30:7) Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

So, if we don't have to endure anything to the end of anything, then you've answered my question--that we don't have to endure trials or temptations even in the slightest.

I said no such thing, but thanks again for another of your many false accusations. I'm saying that "endure to the end to be saved" has nothing to do with salvation for the body of Christ. It's primarily used by proud people who like to show off how faithful THEY think that THEY are and that THEY would always "endure to the end" (while they do not even know what those TWO passages about a SINGLE event in the life of Christ are talking about).

So the early church was kind of gaslighting themselves in refusing to bow down to Caesar and being martyred for it, right?

I see that you are your usual self. Unable to discuss things intelligently.

Note that the "early church" is another myth of Churchianity. It figures that you should throw that in there somewhere. Have you sold all of your possessions, so that you can be "like the early church"? Are you daily in the temple in Jerusalem?

You have always been blind to God's continued revelation to and through the apostle Paul. It looks like you want to stay ignorant.

 

[Tambora]

So, how much should we endure, if not to the end? Is it ok for Christians to give up at the first hint of persecution, and bow to Caesar? If not the first hint, what about the 3rd or 4th or 10th or 100th? When is it ok for a Christian to stop enduring?

To the end!

It's hard to miss that we see times that former believers stop believing when troublesome times come, and those tribulations causes them to come to the conclusion that God does not exist at all, so they completely abandon their belief in Him.
So it's not just the moment one believes but an enduring belief.

 

[Derf]

My points are:

• The word "saved" does not have a singular meaning, but must be understood in its CONTEXT.
• The "saved" in:
  
  Matt 24:13 (AKJV/PCE)(24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
  
  is NOT talking about "eternal life". It is talking about entering the kingdom that Jesus was preaching was "at hand".

So, if someone dies before the kingdom comes about, then they didn't endure to the end, so they can't enter the kingdom, right?

• Jesus' ministry while on earth, was focused tightly on the nation of Israel (i.e., His people) and the promises made to the fathers. Romans 15:8
• The body of Christ came later and is NOT the nation of Israel.
• The CONTEXT of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the "time of Jacob's trouble", also known as the tribulation.
  Jer 30:7 (AKJV/PCE)
  (30:7) Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Meaning that if you survive past the end of Jacob's trouble, then you will get to move on to the kingdom? It's all about survival, right? If you die, then that means you didn't persevere to the end?

I said no such thing. I'm saying that "endure to the end to be saved" has nothing to do with salvation for the body of Christ. It's primarily used by proud people who like to show off how faithful THEY think that THEY are and that THEY would always "endure to the end" (while they do not even know what those TWO passages about a SINGLE event in the life of Christ are talking about).

Ok. But for now, let's assume that neither you nor I are one of those proud people, and we aren't trying to make ourselves look good by saying we will "endure to the end". We're just two guys trying to understand what it means to "endure to the end" and to whom it applies.

I see that you are your usual self. Unable to discuss things intelligently.

Maybe I'm one of those proud people you mentioned...but for now, remember that we're both assuming neither of us is one of those.

Note that the "early church" is another myth of Churchianity. It figures that you should throw that in there somewhere. Have you sold all of your possessions, so that you can be "like the early church"? Are you daily in the temple in Jerusalem?

"Early church" is a term that means "the people who were alive and part of the body of Christ when the body of Christ was first getting started. It included those who were persecuted after Paul established the Gentiles as part of the church. Surely you could see that was what I was referring to.

You have always been blind to God's continued revelation to and through the apostle Paul. It looks like you want to stay ignorant.

No, I truly want to know what the word of God has to say to me. And I'm kinda curious what it says to others, too. But it seems like only proud people would say that their interpretation is absolutely the only way to read the bible and that anyone who disagrees with them is ignorant. But I forgot. We're assuming neither of us is one of those proud people.

 

[Right Divider]

So, if someone dies before the kingdom comes about, then they didn't endure to the end, so they can't enter the kingdom, right?

The kingdom that Jesus was talking about is the earthly, restored, kingdom of Israel with Jesus as king.

Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.​

Meaning that if you survive past the end of Jacob's trouble, then you will get to move on to the kingdom? It's all about survival, right? If you die, then that means you didn't persevere to the end?

Where do you read about perseverance? Are you a Calvinist?

Ok. But for now, let's assume that neither you nor I are one of those proud people, and we aren't trying to make ourselves look good by saying we will "endure to the end". We're just two guys trying to understand what it means to "endure to the end" and to whom it applies.

I was not saying that you say that. But I've seen that play out many times in many places.

Maybe I'm one of those proud people you mentioned...but for now, remember that we're both assuming neither of us is one of those.

"Early church" is a term that means "the people who were alive and part of the body of Christ when the body of Christ was first getting started.

The body of Christ began with Paul. The people that Churchianity calls the "early church" were all Jews and proselytes and not members of the body of Christ.

It included those who were persecuted after Paul established the Gentiles as part of the church.

You need to clarify.

Surely you could see that was what I was referring to.

No, please clarify.

No, I truly want to know what the word of God has to say to me.

Then you need to learn to rightly divide and stop trying to force Paul's ministry to simply be a continuation of Jesus' earthly ministry as a minister of the circumcision to and through the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Those two ministries are NOT the same.

 

[Derf]

The kingdom that Jesus was talking about is the earthly, restored, kingdom of Israel with Jesus as king.

Matt 6:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven​

Yes, I agree, but if the definition of His kingdom coming is that God's will is done on earth, then the church (the body of Christ) embodies the kingdom. If his body is us, then His kingdom has come on earth, at least to some extent.

Where do you read about perseverance?

2 Corinthians 1:6 KJV — And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

2 Timothy 2:3 KJV — Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:13 KJV — Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

Galatians 5:1 KJV — Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ephesians 6:13 KJV — Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Are you a Calvinist?

No, are you?

I was not saying that you say that. But I've seen that play out many times in many places.

The body of Christ began with Paul. The people that Churchianity calls the "early church" were all Jews and proselytes and not members of the body of Christ.

I'm not sure who you mean by "churchianity", but the church that Paul propagated across the Roman empire was the early church from which our churches today arose. By and large they were made up of Gentiles and Jews. They seemed to want to endure.

You need to clarify.

No, please clarify.

Supra

Then you need to learn to rightly divide and stop trying to force Paul's ministry to simply be a continuation of Jesus' earthly ministry as a minister of the circumcision to and through the twelve apostles that will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Those two ministries are NOT the same.

Sure, Christ ministered to His people differently than He ministers to His church today. They had the oracles of God already.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, I agree, but if the definition of His kingdom coming is that God's will is done on earth, then the church (the body of Christ) embodies the kingdom. If his body is us, then His kingdom has come on earth, at least to some extent.

Except that the gospel of the kingdom (i.e., the kingdom AT HAND) was about the restoration of the kingdom of Israel on the earth. This is why, after forty day of "kingdom training", the apostles asked this:

Acts 1:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ​

​

Acts 1:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.​

Note that Jesus did NOT correct their understanding.... simply the timing.

2 Corinthians 1:6 KJV — And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

2 Timothy 2:3 KJV — Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:13 KJV — Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

Galatians 5:1 KJV — Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ephesians 6:13 KJV — Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

None of those have anything to do with "enduring to the end to be saved".

No, are you?

No, but I'm not the one talking about "perseverance".

I'm not sure who you mean by "churchianity", but the church that Paul propagated across the Roman empire was the early church from which our churches today arose.

• Churchianity is the term that I use to describe the majority of "Christianity" today that is filled with myths and half-truths.
• Most people in Churchianity consider the "early church" to have begun in Acts 2.

By and large they were made up of Gentiles and Jews. They seemed to want to endure.

Again, this sort of "endurance" has nothing to do with Matthew 23 or Mark 13.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT and CONTEXT.

Sure, Christ ministered to His people differently than He ministers to His church today.

Big time!

They had the oracles of God already.

No, they did not have ALL of the oracles of God. The Word of God was MISSING the dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul.... MY gospel as Paul calls it.

 

[Derf]

Except that the gospel of the kingdom (i.e., the kingdom AT HAND) was about the restoration of the kingdom of Israel on the earth. This is why, after forty day of "kingdom training", the apostles asked this:

Acts 1:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:3) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: ​

​

Acts 1:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.​

Note that Jesus did NOT correct their understanding.... simply the timing.


None of those have anything to do with "enduring to the end to be saved".

But you said that such salvation wasnt the same thing even for the kingdom-looking Jews.

So you claim for the kingdom a form of godliness while denying it power to save.

No, but I'm not the one talking about "perseverance".

You do realize perseverance and endurance are synonymous?

• Churchianity is the term that I use to describe the majority of "Christianity" today that is filled with myths and half-truths.
• Most people in Churchianity consider the "early church" to have begun in Acts 2.

Yes, and to have continued on through Paul's ministry and beyond.

Again, this sort of "endurance" has nothing to do with Matthew 23 or Mark 13.
CONTEXT, CONTEXT and CONTEXT.

You said the body of Christ needn't endure anything for any time.

Big time!

No, they did not have ALL of the oracles of God. The Word of God was MISSING the dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul.... MY gospel as Paul calls it.

Nor did they understand that Jesus would declare all things clean, despite segregating clean (Jew) and unclean (Gentile) for so long. But that doesn't mean the church He was building wasn't meant to have uncircumcised people in it.

 

[Right Divider]

But you said that such salvation wasnt the same thing even for the kingdom-looking Jews.

I have no idea where you're going with this.
The "saved" in Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13 is NOT talking about being saved from sins.

So you claim for the kingdom a form of godliness while denying it power to save.

Another false accusation.

You do realize perseverance and endurance are synonymous?

Wonderful.

Yes, and to have continued on through Paul's ministry and beyond.

The body of Christ did NOT begin in Act 2.
The body of Christ began with Paul in Acts 9.

You said the body of Christ needn't endure anything for any time.

TO BE SAVED from our SINS. Please pay attention!

Nor did they understand that Jesus would declare all things clean, despite segregating clean (Jew) and unclean (Gentile) for so long. But that doesn't mean the church He was building wasn't meant to have uncircumcised people in it.

The body of Christ is not the nation of Israel and visa versa.
I can see that you are too fixated on Churchanity to have any chance of understanding the truth.

 

[Derf]

I have no idea where you're going with this.
The "saved" in Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13 is NOT talking about being saved from sins.

What are they being saved from?

Another false accusation.

Wonderful.

The body of Christ did NOT begin in Act 2.
The body of Christ began with Paul in Acts 9.

So you've said before. But Peter was the one that received the dream about clean and unclean animals in reference to Gentiles in the Church. Peter wrote to the same groups Paul wrote to. Peter and Paul were not of different Churches, different faiths. Peter was not saved by enduring to the end.

TO BE SAVED from our SINS. Please pay attention!

The body of Christ is not the nation of Israel and visa versa.

Agreed.

I can see that you are too fixated on Churchanity to have any chance of understanding the truth.

Perhaps you've divided wrongly once again.

 

[Right Divider]

What are they being saved from?

Have you never read the two passages in question?

Matt 24:6-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(24:6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (24:7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (24:8) All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. (24:9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (24:10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (24:11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (24:12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.​

Those are the verses just before the "endure to the end, the same shall be saved".
What do you think that "enduring" and "saved" mean in THAT CONTEXT?

So you've said before. But Peter was the one that received the dream about clean and unclean animals in reference to Gentiles in the Church.

Do you have any idea how many YEARS later that this dream took place?
Did you notice that it took place AFTER Paul was called?
God was making a CHANGE.

Peter wrote to the same groups Paul wrote to. Peter and Paul were not of different Churches, different faiths.

Do you NOT realize that Peter (and the eleven) and Paul agreed to SEPARATE their ministries?

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. ​

Peter agreed to limit his ministry to the CIRCUMCISION only.

Peter was not saved by enduring to the end.

The events of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 NEVER TOOK PLACE!
Something intervened. Guess what that was and who its apostle was...

Perhaps you've divided wrongly once again.

Perhaps not.

 

[Lon]

"Enduring to the end" has a CONTEXT... enduring WHAT until the END of WHAT?

Specifically the disciples/apostles enduring persecution and not to worry because they are going to be saved, though they are killed? It seems to me, a promise of comfort for 'this *(that) generation.' He said it wouldn't pass away until it had seen all of it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Specifically the disciples/apostles enduring persecution and not to worry because they are going to be saved, though they are killed?

Persecution as a part of what?

It seems to me, a promise of comfort for 'this *(that) generation.' He said it wouldn't pass away until it had seen all of it.

What promise of comfort are you talking about? Book chapter verse, please.

 

[Lon]

Persecution as a part of what?

The spread of the gospel and its consequences as well as the violence amped at this time in Rome (If I'm understanding your 'what' correctly).

What promise of comfort are you talking about? Book chapter verse, please.

Matthew 24:13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. That's a promise of comfort.

Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Thus in my estimation, fulfilled as the Apostles and disciples were put to death (supports your premise if not exactly for the same idea, i.e. you may have said this because 'they were Jews' and this was 'to Jews.' I support it because of that, but more precisely because I believe Matthew 24 mostly fulfilled.

Several instances of 'this generation' fulfillment:
1)Stephen and the rest of the Apostles were killed, John persecuted.

2) Mat 24:19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days!

Perpetua and Felicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Right Divider]

The spread of the gospel and its consequences as well as the violence amped at this time in Rome (If I'm understanding your 'what' correctly).

Which gospel?

Matthew 24:13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. That's a promise of comfort.

Mat 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Thus in my estimation, fulfilled as the Apostles and disciples were put to death (supports your premise if not exactly for the same idea, i.e. you may have said this because 'they were Jews' and this was 'to Jews.' I support it because of that, but more precisely because I believe Matthew 24 mostly fulfilled.

Several instances of 'this generation' fulfillment:
1)Stephen and the rest of the Apostles were killed, John persecuted.

2) Mat 24:19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days!

Perpetua and Felicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The time spoken of in Matt 24 is called the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble and it has not happened yet.

Perhaps you've missed the point of this thread.