ECT Easy grace?

[revpete]

I've heard this expression on TOL A few times and it always seems linked to OSAS. To me this shows a lack of understanding of the doctrine which I prefer to call Eternal Security. What do you think? I'm not after a discussion here just opinions.

Pete

 

[nikolai_42]

I've heard this expression on TOL A few times and it always seems linked to OSAS. To me this shows a lack of understanding of the doctrine which I prefer to call Eternal Security. What do you think? I'm not after a discussion here just opinions.

Pete ��

It depends on the context. Those who believe you have to obey to be saved - thinking more about after salvation - typically believe "easy grace" means no demands on you (missing the fact that we are saved unto good works that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them). Then there are those that believe it has more to do with the way someone comes to Christ. That salvation is as simple as praying a prayer and saying "I believe" (or something like that). It treats salvation in a very superficial manner and makes evangelism more like a sales pitch (I just heard a very good idea of this yesterday where the pastor was constantly trying to close the deal by asking "Do you want to receive Jesus?"). In effect, this form of "easy grace" makes the role of the Holy Spirit varied (maybe even optional) since all one needs to do is hear the words and then you can add one to the book of life. And if that person ever doubts his salvation again...he can just point to the prayer he prayed!

EDIT : A point about the first view...it basically becomes you trying to keep your salvation instead of resting in the finished work of Christ. We do need to labor to enter into rest, but those that are only worried about obeying so they aren't lost are missing the whole motivation behind obedience.

Pretty clear where I stand here, I think.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I've heard this expression on TOL A few times and it always seems linked to OSAS. To me this shows a lack of understanding of the doctrine which I prefer to call Eternal Security. What do you think? I'm not after a discussion here just opinions.

Pete

I believe "Easy Grace" is formed from combining the terms "Easy Believism" and "Free Grace".

Free Grace is the name of the doctrine, Easy Believism is a derogatory descriptive term for the doctrine.

Here is one of the things Billy Graham said about Easy Believism

_____
As I approached my 95th birthday, I was burdened to write a book that addressed the epidemic of "easy believism." There is a mindset today that if people believe in God and do good works they are going to Heaven. But there are many questions that must be answered. There are two basic needs that all people have: the need for hope and the need for salvation. It should not be surprising if people believe easily in a God who makes no demands, but this is not the God of the Bible. Satan has cleverly misled people by whispering that they can believe in Jesus Christ without being changed, but this is the Devil's lie. To those who say you can have Christ without giving anything up, Satan is deceiving you.
_____​

 

[nikolai_42]

I believe "Easy Grace" is formed from combining the terms "Easy Believism" and "Free Grace".

Free Grace is the name of the doctrine, Easy Believism is a derogatory descriptive term for the doctrine.

Here is one of the things Billy Graham said about Easy Believism

_____
As I approached my 95th birthday, I was burdened to write a book that addressed the epidemic of "easy believism." There is a mindset today that if people believe in God and do good works they are going to Heaven. But there are many questions that must be answered. There are two basic needs that all people have: the need for hope and the need for salvation. It should not be surprising if people believe easily in a God who makes no demands, but this is not the God of the Bible. Satan has cleverly misled people by whispering that they can believe in Jesus Christ without being changed, but this is the Devil's lie. To those who say you can have Christ without giving anything up, Satan is deceiving you.
_____​

What is Graham really addressing here? He starts out by seeming to deal with works salvation - that you can be good and earn your way to heaven. But he stops short of saying you can't (sort of leaves it as an open ended question?). But then ends up by soundly chastizing demand-free Christianity by (and this is the critical point) saying you have to give things up to be changed. That is, he seems to equate "being changed" with "giving anything up".

Isn't that akin to the works salvation he supposedly reject?

 

[genuineoriginal]

What is Graham really addressing here? He starts out by seeming to deal with works salvation - that you can be good and earn your way to heaven. But he stops short of saying you can't (sort of leaves it as an open ended question?). But then ends up by soundly chastizing demand-free Christianity by (and this is the critical point) saying you have to give things up to be changed. That is, he seems to equate "being changed" with "giving anything up".

Isn't that akin to the works salvation he supposedly reject?

What is the real difference between a believer and an unbeliever?

Is it only that the believer ends up in the kingdom and the unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire?

Or is there something else?

 

[nikolai_42]

What is the real difference between a believer and an unbeliever?

Is it only that the believer ends up in the kingdom and the unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire?

Or is there something else?

The mechanism by which that happens...our works or His? There is an immense difference between a believer and an unbeliever - though the change may not work itself out to be evident to all immediately - but the critical point is that the change is inside out...not outside in. Graham is addressing an underlying issue - "easy believism" - but doesn't properly define it. So to start out saying what he does makes it seem as though he is going to challenge the clear problem with claiming to be a "good person" before God. But instead of clearly casting down that argument first, he quickly skips to the obverse contention - that one can be saved and not change - and condemns it clearly and without question. So one is left with the idea (from this snippet...granted it is only that) that one's own change is left at least partly in his own hands. That change is necessary and you need to help effect it.

I take some issue with it in the context of defining the idea. That is, I don't take this as proof that Graham is explicitly preaching works righteousness. Just that he isn't defining the issue clearly and that the way he responds to it makes it easy to read that he may well believe some form of works righteousness. The issue is often used as a reaction to the opposite view (antinomianism vs. works righteousness) so it can't be used to absolutely say this is what is being taught.

That said, he is not the Graham of the 50's and 60's...

 

[genuineoriginal]

The mechanism by which that happens...our works or His?

What makes you think it is one or the other and not a combination of the two?

Do you know what God is looking for?

Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

There is an immense difference between a believer and an unbeliever - though the change may not work itself out to be evident to all immediately - but the critical point is that the change is inside out...not outside in.

If there is no change on the outside, what makes you think there was any change on the inside?

Graham is addressing an underlying issue - "easy believism" - but doesn't properly define it. So to start out saying what he does makes it seem as though he is going to challenge the clear problem with claiming to be a "good person" before God. But instead of clearly casting down that argument first, he quickly skips to the obverse contention - that one can be saved and not change - and condemns it clearly and without question.

Easy Believism is a doctrine that denies Works.
Works Salvation is a doctrine that denies Grace.

One strays too far to the left, the other strays too far to the right.

So one is left with the idea (from this snippet...granted it is only that) that one's own change is left at least partly in his own hands. That change is necessary and you need to help effect it.

Change is necessary.

You can be certain that God will not force you to do something against your will unless He is planning on using you as an example, like Jonah.
When God wants to make an example of someone, He usually finds someone whose will already works with His example, like Pharaoh.

The primary complaint against Easy Believism is that the actions of the believers are often the actions that are condemned in the Bible.

The primary complaint against Works Salvation is that the beliefs of the workers is that everyone must do the same works to be saved.

Neither side really asks what God's will is in the matter.

Easy Believism never asks whether God's will is that they hear the word and do not do it.

James 1:22 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.​

Works Salvation never asks whether their works are the doctrines of men or the will of God.

Colossians 2:20-23 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.​

So, what is God's will on the belief vs. works debate?

 

[revpete]

Grace is free but certainly not cheap! I believe a person is saved by Gods grace and this being so that person cannot possibly keep themselves saved by any amount of works they do. The works that God has prepared for His children to walk in we do by the enabling power of The Holy Spirit. Saved, kept, sanctified and glorified by The Holy Spirit to the glory of God. The Father is The author of our salvation, The Son is The procurer and The Holy Spirit is The executor. That's what I believe scripture teaches but of course please feel free to express views to the contrary if you wish.

Note: In the OT God's people were promised victory but still had battles!

Pete

 

[nikolai_42]

What makes you think it is one or the other and not a combination of the two?

Do you know what God is looking for?

Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.​

If there is no change on the outside, what makes you think there was any change on the inside?


Easy Believism is a doctrine that denies Works.
Works Salvation is a doctrine that denies Grace.

One strays too far to the left, the other strays too far to the right.


Change is necessary.

You can be certain that God will not force you to do something against your will unless He is planning on using you as an example, like Jonah.
When God wants to make an example of someone, He usually finds someone whose will already works with His example, like Pharaoh.

The primary complaint against Easy Believism is that the actions of the believers are often the actions that are condemned in the Bible.

The primary complaint against Works Salvation is that the beliefs of the workers is that everyone must do the same works to be saved.

Neither side really asks what God's will is in the matter.

Easy Believism never asks whether God's will is that they hear the word and do not do it.

James 1:22 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.​

Works Salvation never asks whether their works are the doctrines of men or the will of God.

Colossians 2:20-23 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.​

So, what is God's will on the belief vs. works debate?

Men ask the wrong question : "what do we do"?

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:28:29

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:18-21

Unless these deeds come from God, how can they be wrought in Him?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

I think it is a settled thing that we are not doing our own works. Rather, I think the question is more pertinent as to how (or why) we do them. First, in Christ ("wrought in God"). Or they are not our works. They cannot come from us.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

And remembering that only those that believe Him come to Him...

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:38-40

...the works that we do are not our own as born out by who gets the due praise for them :

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:16

And, ultimately :

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I Timothy 1:9

So we are His workmanship, not our own. Thus, our works are not our own. Our calling is not our own. Our salvation is not our own. All that we are must be from Him:

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I Peter 1:23

If there is a change, it is of God. If there is not, man is fooling himself. It may not appear immediately (the tree doesn't bring forth fruit right away and the well-rooted sapling takes time to root before it appears), but when it does, it will be clear whose work it is. Our work is not our own - even though we don't always have an awareness of whose work we are doing, it all comes from the one source. So if the tree is good, it is the planting of the Lord, if not, it will bring forth no fruit (or bad fruit). But in no sense are we required to provide works that come from anything but that which God is already doing in us.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

 

[jamie]

Paul said, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22 NKJV)

We are saved by God's grace but be assured he will test our faith. Yes, be assured.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Men ask the wrong question : "what do we do"?

Isn't it interesting then that the question never appeared in my post?

Instead I asked, What makes you think it is [our works] or [God's] and not a combination of the two?
Your post appears to be an answer to that.

Unless these deeds come from God, how can they be wrought in Him?

It looks like you are confusing the deeds with the instructions.

The instructions come from God, but it is man who does the deeds.

Deuteronomy 5:29 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!​

There is much in this one verse that is often ignored in the Easy Believism vs Works Salvation debate.

First, God is stating that He is looking for the desire to be in the heart of the people, but He is not putting it there, so it must come from the people themselves.
Second, God is stating that the people must revere Him and again that reverence must come from the people themselves.
Third, God is stating that the people must always keep all of His commandments. He has ordained the good works of the commandments, but it is up to the people to walk in them.
Finally, God is stating His purpose for giving the commandments, it is for the benefit of the people and their children throughout all their generations.

Of the four points made in the verse, the first two depend only on the free will of the people, the third one is a cooperation between God and the people, and the final one depends on God alone.

Salvation is in the final point, and depends on God alone.

Easy Believism relies on the idea that you can get from the first one to the final one without going through the second and third.
Works Salvation relies on the idea that you can skip the first and second, start with the third and go to the fourth.

Both are missing two of the points that are necessary for salvation.

 

[nikolai_42]

Isn't it interesting then that the question never appeared in my post?

Instead I asked, What makes you think it is [our works] or [God's] and not a combination of the two?
Your post appears to be an answer to that.

It looks like you are confusing the deeds with the instructions.

The instructions come from God, but it is man who does the deeds.

Deuteronomy 5:29 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!​

There is much in this one verse that is often ignored in the Easy Believism vs Works Salvation debate.

First, God is stating that He is looking for the desire to be in the heart of the people, but He is not putting it there, so it must come from the people themselves.

Second, God is stating that the people must revere Him and again that reverence must come from the people themselves.

Third, God is stating that the people must always keep all of His commandments. He has ordained the good works of the commandments, but it is up to the people to walk in them.

Finally, God is stating His purpose for giving the commandments, it is for the benefit of the people and their children throughout all their generations.

Of the four points made in the verse, the first two depend only on the free will of the people, the third one is a cooperation between God and the people, and the final one depends on God alone.

I'm not sure Deuteronomy is such a good place to find support for this :

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Deuteronomy 8:1-2

I'm fairly certain God knew what was in their hearts...which is why He ultimately promised them this :

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:22-27

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

 

[genuineoriginal]

I'm not sure Deuteronomy is such a good place to find support for this :

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Deuteronomy 8:1-2

I'm fairly certain God knew what was in their hearts...

It depends on whether you believe that God created mankind with autonomous will or whether you believe that everything a man thinks and feels was predestined many ages before the man drew his first breath.

There are a few verses scattered around the Bible that can be used to support the idea of total predestination.

However, the overwhelming majority of the Bible is written as if mankind has autonomous will and that it is the actions of a man that are used to show God what that man's will consists of.

Which explains why the Bible says men are judged according to their works.

I'm fairly certain God knew what was in their hearts...which is why He ultimately promised them this :

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:22-27

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

You might refresh yourself on why the children of Israel needed to be taken from among the heathen, gathered out of all countries, and brought back into the Land of Israel by reading Deuteronomy 28:15-68.

 

[chrysostom]

we have to work to demonstrate our faith

there is no easy way out

 

[nikolai_42]

It depends on whether you believe that God created mankind with autonomous will or whether you believe that everything a man thinks and feels was predestined many ages before the man drew his first breath.

I think it was precisely because God had some respect to man's will that He did what He did. He could have just either slain them or saved them right there - but He didn't. He was preparing them and showing them what was in their hearts. To believe that He didn't know presents a God who can't know all His works from the beginning. And it presents a conundrum when we find that when the Son of God walked this earth as a man, He knew all men - knew their hearts - and so didn't commit Himself to any of them. Was this intimate knowledge based only on observing Israel over a period of time?

Loving Jacob and hating Esau long before they were born. If one doesn't hold predestination in any sense (and upholds autonomous free will), here is a problem. Because God then is forced to make sure that He made the right choice of who to love - or change things after Jacob ends up being the man God didn't realize He would become (oops!). So in the end, His incomplete knowledge of man requires Him to meddle with man's free will to force a situation whereby Jacob ends up as He intended all along (but Jacob messed up with his choices). So a God with limited knowledge ultimately is forced to take away the free will that Open Theism seems to require (not saying you are an OTist - just taking this to what seems to be its logical conclusion). Otherwise, the creation thwarts the plans of the Creator.

But on the other hand, if one says that God knew because He saw down the corridors of time, then it is still true that He knew what was in Israel's heart before Israel was even a people. So I don't see that God ever expected (knowing the truth) Israel to be obedient. But it was necessary to show them - and the world - what was in the fallen heart. The times of ignorance God winked at...

There are a few verses scattered around the Bible that can be used to support the idea of total predestination.

However, the overwhelming majority of the Bible is written as if mankind has autonomous will and that it is the actions of a man that are used to show God what that man's will consists of.

Which explains why the Bible says men are judged according to their works.

Again, I don't see the binary choice as accurate. Man has freedom - yes. But God's Sovereignty is absolute. There are several scriptures that show that the apostles understood predestination to hold. I am not sure exactly how it all washes out, but to be consistent (and use the word "chosen" correctly) it seems to me that predestination does hold in some way. As a creature, I don't see all the mechanics of it - but I am aware that the power of the word of God reveals things that nothing else can. And in that revealing, man's reactions are not subject to "free will". Once seeing what is in the heart, a man is what he is and no amount of choosing will change that. The word of God also works faith into a man's heart. Absent that, the only response to being exposed to light a man has is that of the Pharisees and the demons - to flee. So what good work or will can you or I do to come to Him in faith? No one can do so unless the Father draws him.

You might refresh yourself on why the children of Israel needed to be taken from among the heathen, gathered out of all countries, and brought back into the Land of Israel by reading Deuteronomy 28:15-68.

Okay. And...?

 

[DAN P]

I've heard this expression on TOL A few times and it always seems linked to OSAS. To me this shows a lack of understanding of the doctrine which I prefer to call Eternal Security. What do you think? I'm not after a discussion here just opinions.

Pete ��

Hi and where in your OPINION is there EASY GRACE ??

You want no discussion , yet was Christ death on the cross that and EASY DEATH , so EASY Grace , how nice of you !!:shut::shut::Shimei::Shimei:

dan p

 

[revpete]

Hi and where in your OPINION is there EASY GRACE ??

You want no discussion , yet you are Christ death on the cross was and EASY DEATH , so EASY Grace , how nice of you !!:shut::shut::Shimei::Shimei:

dan p

If you want to know my views on grace read #8. Once again you prove yourself to be argumentative, bigoted and blinkered.

Pete

 

[DAN P]

If you want to know my views on grace read #8. Once again you prove yourself to be argumentative, bigoted and blinkered.

Pete

Hi and you are not Argumentative for Acts 2 , and are you not bigoted , when Jesus says to only go to the House of Israel in Matt 10:5 and 6 and leave out the Gentiles < and are you not BLINDED by keeping a Jew Feast Day ??

dan p

 

[revpete]

Hi and you are not Argumentative for Acts 2 , and are you not bigoted , when Jesus says to only go to the House of Israel in Matt 10:5 and 6 and leave out the Gentiles < and are you not BLINDED by keeping a Jew Feast Day ??

dan p

What are you talking about? Your reply has nothing to do with the OT. You make judgemental assumptions which are not true.

No, I am fully aware that others may have different opinions than me. I may not agree with them but I respect their right to hold and express them. Something which you apparently do not.

Pete

 

[Totton Linnet]

Grace is an entirely God thing.

If God gives somebody grace, and imparts to them faith to be saved, they will be saved. Why would anybody question either the grace or the faith or the salvation?

These things be eternal matters.