Dreams and Visions

Ben Masada

New member
Dreams and visions.

They are very closely related. "And our old men will have dreams; and our young will have visions." (Joel 2:28) But these are dreams and visions in the metaphorical meaning of ideals and intellectual development.

Normal dreams occur when we are deeply sleeping. And everyone dreams; and we dream every time we are asleep. Many think they don't, because 75 percent of dreams are forgotten as we wake up.

What is the difference between dreams and visions? To dream, everyone does, although only 25 percent remember to have dreamed. To have a vision, one must be self-trained to be in control of the dream, which will then become a lucid dream. The ancient Israelite Prophets were pretty good experts at it.

Visions are known as lucid dreams, and they occur during that period of transition between deep sleep and the awaken state. But they mostly happen during a slumber, as we take a rest and can't fall asleep because of preoccupations about what has been happening to us or to our significant ones.

A classical example of the above, we have in Abraham, when soon after his circumcision, he tried to rest at the entrance of his tent under the shade of a large tree to take advantage of the fresh breeze in the heat of the day. (Gen. 18:1,2) He could not stop worrying about Sarah's barren condition, albeit God's promise of a son. He would worry also about his nephew Lot in Sodom in the middle of corruption. Thus, he slumbered and had a lucid dream or vision, which he, almost involuntarily would control it into his understanding through his imaginations as how things would take a turn either this or that way. Then, he saw in his lucid dream/vision the Divine confirmation of the promise, and even Sarah laughing from her tent at the idea of giving birth to a child as the old woman that she was. (Gen. 18:12)

Then, in the same lucid dream/vision, he would change scenery as his imagination went from Sarah to Lot in Sodom. Then, he would dialog with Divine emanations in the human forms of messengers who would speak with him on behalf of God about His promised heir and about Sodom. (Gen. 18:16-32)

The same thing happened with Ezekiel, the Prophet when he was in Babylon at the end of the exile. He would worry about Israel and the imminent return. In his vision he would be lifted up in the air and transported to Israel, where what he would deal with, was so virtual that an unskilled reader would bet he was actually in Israel. (Ezekiel 8:1) The truth is that he never actually left Babylon. It had been all in the lucidity of his imaginations.

The Prophets had rich imaginations which they would use during lucid dreams or visions in order to find solutions and a sound advice to kings or people in charge of the Governments of nations. I am not ruling out here the Divine intervention, but through emanations in the minds of the Prophets or even in some of the common people.

Now, during dreams, lucid dreams or visions, everything is possible, even to see God and live. In fact, some Prophets thought they would die because of the intensity with which they would self-induce themselves into believing that they really had seen God, when everything had occurred during a lucid dream or vision. (Isaiah 1:1; 2:1; 6:5)

Of course, the imagination functions according to the mental or religious orientation of the dreamer or visionary.

Now, I would like to welcome any comments.
 

Apple7

New member
Looks take a look at your anti-semitical bigotry…


Dreams and visions.

They are very closely related. "And our old men will have dreams; and our young will have visions." (Joel 2:28) But these are dreams and visions in the metaphorical meaning of ideals and intellectual development.

Normal dreams occur when we are deeply sleeping. And everyone dreams; and we dream every time we are asleep. Many think they don't, because 75 percent of dreams are forgotten as we wake up.

What is the difference between dreams and visions? To dream, everyone does, although only 25 percent remember to have dreamed. To have a vision, one must be self-trained to be in control of the dream, which will then become a lucid dream. The ancient Israelite Prophets were pretty good experts at it.

Visions are known as lucid dreams, and they occur during that period of transition between deep sleep and the awaken state. But they mostly happen during a slumber, as we take a rest and can't fall asleep because of preoccupations about what has been happening to us or to our significant ones.

A classical example of the above, we have in Abraham, when soon after his circumcision, he tried to rest at the entrance of his tent under the shade of a large tree to take advantage of the fresh breeze in the heat of the day. (Gen. 18:1,2) He could not stop worrying about Sarah's barren condition, albeit God's promise of a son. He would worry also about his nephew Lot in Sodom in the middle of corruption. Thus, he slumbered and had a lucid dream or vision, which he, almost involuntarily would control it into his understanding through his imaginations as how things would take a turn either this or that way. Then, he saw in his lucid dream/vision the Divine confirmation of the promise, and even Sarah laughing from her tent at the idea of giving birth to a child as the old woman that she was. (Gen. 18:12)

Then, in the same lucid dream/vision, he would change scenery as his imagination went from Sarah to Lot in Sodom. Then, he would dialog with Divine emanations in the human forms of messengers who would speak with him on behalf of God about His promised heir and about Sodom. (Gen. 18:16-32)

The same thing happened with Ezekiel, the Prophet when he was in Babylon at the end of the exile. He would worry about Israel and the imminent return. In his vision he would be lifted up in the air and transported to Israel, where what he would deal with, was so virtual that an unskilled reader would bet he was actually in Israel. (Ezekiel 8:1) The truth is that he never actually left Babylon. It had been all in the lucidity of his imaginations.

The Prophets had rich imaginations which they would use during lucid dreams or visions in order to find solutions and a sound advice to kings or people in charge of the Governments of nations. I am not ruling out here the Divine intervention, but through emanations in the minds of the Prophets or even in some of the common people.

Now, during dreams, lucid dreams or visions, everything is possible, even to see God and live. In fact, some Prophets thought they would die because of the intensity with which they would self-induce themselves into believing that they really had seen God, when everything had occurred during a lucid dream or vision. (Isaiah 1:1; 2:1; 6:5)

Of course, the imagination functions according to the mental or religious orientation of the dreamer or visionary.

Now, I would like to welcome any comments.




Now....look what you have done.

You have deceitfully attempted to set the stage for your Biblical ‘dreams and visions’ to have occurred while the person(s) involved were asleep.

Fact is, none of your Biblical examples of encounters with God are in the context of anyone having been asleep!

The Hebrew ‘chizzayon’, ‘chalom’ & ‘chazon’ are all used in the context of someone fully awake and in their right faculties.

Just like this close physical encounter that Gideon had with Yahweh…


And I said to you, I am Yahweh your God. You shall not fear the gods of the Amorite among whom you are dwelling in their land. But you have not listened to My voice. And The Malek Yahweh came and sat under the oak which is in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite. And his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the eyes of Midian. And The Malek Yahweh appeared to him, and said to him, Yahweh is with you, mighty warrior. And Gideon said to Him, Oh my Lord, if Yahweh is with us, then why has all this happened to us? And where are all His wonders which our fathers recounted to us, saying, Did not Yahweh bring us up out of Egypt? And now Yahweh has left us, and has given us into the hands of Midian. And Yahweh turned to him and said, Go in this strength of yours, and you shall deliver Israel out of the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you? (Judges 6.10 -14)


As you can see for yourself, Gideon is NOT dreaming here…Gideon is not asleep.

Here we have Yahweh sitting under an oak tree, turning face-to-face, in full discussion, with Gideon, having a discussion!

Snap out of your bigotry.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Looks take a look at your anti-semitical bigotry…

Now....look what you have done.

You have deceitfully attempted to set the stage for your Biblical ‘dreams and visions’ to have occurred while the person(s) involved were asleep.

Fact is, none of your Biblical examples of encounters with God are in the context of anyone having been asleep!

The Hebrew ‘chizzayon’, ‘chalom’ & ‘chazon’ are all used in the context of someone fully awake and in their right faculties.

Just like this close physical encounter that Gideon had with Yahweh…


And I said to you, I am Yahweh your God. You shall not fear the gods of the Amorite among whom you are dwelling in their land. But you have not listened to My voice. And The Malek Yahweh came and sat under the oak which is in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite. And his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the eyes of Midian. And The Malek Yahweh appeared to him, and said to him, Yahweh is with you, mighty warrior. And Gideon said to Him, Oh my Lord, if Yahweh is with us, then why has all this happened to us? And where are all His wonders which our fathers recounted to us, saying, Did not Yahweh bring us up out of Egypt? And now Yahweh has left us, and has given us into the hands of Midian. And Yahweh turned to him and said, Go in this strength of yours, and you shall deliver Israel out of the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you? (Judges 6.10 -14)

As you can see for yourself, Gideon is NOT dreaming here…Gideon is not asleep.

Here we have Yahweh sitting under an oak tree, turning face-to-face, in full discussion, with Gideon,having a discussion!

Snap out of your bigotry.

Listen Apple, as I can see, you refuse what the Torah says that if there is a prophet in Israel, the Lord will reveal Himself to him or her in a vision and will talk to him or her in a dream. That's in Numbers 12:6. Let's make a deal. Would you change your mind if I provided you with... let's say ten evidences of any vocal or visual relation with God through a dream?
 

Apple7

New member
Listen Apple, as I can see, you refuse what the Torah says that if there is a prophet in Israel, the Lord will reveal Himself to him or her in a vision and will talk to him or her in a dream. That's in Numbers 12:6. Let's make a deal. Would you change your mind if I provided you with... let's say ten evidences of any vocal or visual relation with God through a dream?

You can't even produce ONE verse where that person was sleeping during the encounter with God.

Look at how you run from Gideon's face-to-face encounter with Yahweh.

Run.

:dog:
 

Ben Masada

New member
You can't even produce ONE verse where that person was sleeping during the encounter with God.

Look at how you run from Gideon's face-to-face encounter with Yahweh.

One: When Jacob was on his way to Padan Aram, He stopped for the night in Betel and had a dream. In his dream an enormous ladder from earth into Heaven was there and angels would go up and down. The point is that he was too anxious and preoccupied about his expectations in a place he had never been before. The angels going up were his anxieties, and coming down was God's answer to his preoccupations. It is in Genesis 28:10-12. Good luck!
 

Apple7

New member
One: When Jacob was on his way to Padan Aram, He stopped for the night in Betel and had a dream. In his dream an enormous ladder from earth into Heaven was there and angels would go up and down. The point is that he was too anxious and preoccupied about his expectations in a place he had never been before. The angels going up were his anxieties, and coming down was God's answer to his preoccupations. It is in Genesis 28:10-12. Good luck!

Gen 28 does not have Joseph interacting with Yahweh, nor does it mention Yahweh's human form.

Gen 32 has an awake Joseph wrestling, interacting and talking with Yahweh in human form.


You can't keep hiding behind your 'dreaming while in a state of sleep' excuse as an ignorant attempt to deny Yahweh in human form in your scriptures.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Gen 28 does not have Joseph interacting with Yahweh, nor does it mention Yahweh's human form.

Gen 32 has an awake Joseph wrestling, interacting and talking with Yahweh in human form.


You can't keep hiding behind your 'dreaming while in a state of sleep' excuse as an ignorant attempt to deny Yahweh in human form in your scriptures.

I thought I was talking about Jacob. Probably you didn't even check the text.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Yes, Jacob, a typo....who has no interaction with Yahweh while he is sleeping.

A few chapters later, however, a fully awake Joseph interacts and talks with Yahweh.

Well, we all interact with Yahweh in prayer but, the interaction is one way. The reply will probably come in a dream or vision if the Lord finds you worth the chance.
 
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