Don't be Jewish be Christian

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So let's hear about textual tests...

There's masses of information to study here but this gives a brief over view of why the New Testament is reliable:

https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

 

[chair]

There's masses of information to study here but this gives a brief over view of why the New Testament is reliable:

https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence

There are three basic arguments here:
1. The fact that there are many ancient manuscripts shows that the text is historically accurate.
2. The fact that some of the manuscripts are dated to the first generation or two after the events happened proves that the stories are true.
3. Since nobody at the time said "hang on- that's not true"- the stories must be true.

1. The fact that there are many ancient manuscripts indicates that the text that we have is in fact ancient. It can indicate that we have a text that is close to the original. It does not indicate that the content of the text is accurate.

If there were 10,000 copies of Homer's Iliad, it would not make it more historically accurate.

How does one get so many NT manuscripts? First of all- you need to have a popular religion. It helps if your religion is in power and preserves your manuscripts rather than burning them.

2. This claim is not new to me either. Legends develop a lot faster than many people realize. It doesn't take generations. Look at how many people fall for all sorts of new cults.

3. Considering who preserved documents in the Middle Ages, it is no surprise that the pro-Christian ones were preserved. Did I mention the Church burning books that it considered heretical? I also wonder how much attention the early Christians got- as opposed to simply being ignored.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

There are three basic arguments here:
1. The fact that there are many ancient manuscripts shows that the text is historically accurate.
2. The fact that some of the manuscripts are dated to the first generation or two after the events happened proves that the stories are true.
3. Since nobody at the time said "hang on- that's not true"- the stories must be true.

1. The fact that there are many ancient manuscripts indicates that the text that we have is in fact ancient. It can indicate that we have a text that is close to the original. It does not indicate that the content of the text is accurate.

If there were 10,000 copies of Homer's Iliad, it would not make it more historically accurate.

How does one get so many NT manuscripts? First of all- you need to have a popular religion. It helps if your religion is in power and preserves your manuscripts rather than burning them.

2. This claim is not new to me either. Legends develop a lot faster than many people realize. It doesn't take generations. Look at how many people fall for all sorts of new cults.

3. Considering who preserved documents in the Middle Ages, it is no surprise that the pro-Christian ones were preserved. Did I mention the Church burning books that it considered heretical? I also wonder how much attention the early Christians got- as opposed to simply being ignored.

I agree with some of your reasoning but based on the balance of probabilities your anti-arguments are ultimately more unlikely than the most logical outcomes, which have resulted in the situation we currently have. i.e. the largest religion on earth.

I mean you have to look at this movement from it's origins, when Mary realised it was Jesus talking to her and not the Gardener, to over 2 billion believers today. Everything must be taken on balance. You must also realise from what you have said that by your same reasoning it would cast serious doubt on your Old Testament too.

Also you mentioned how being a popular religion preserved the manuscripts but of course Christianity was a very unpopular religion for the first few hundred years. That said some might argue that once it got popular it actually started to loose it's substance for existing in the first place, i.e. the truth.

The fact is Historians accept Jesus was a real person because of the evidence for His existence and they also accept that He was crucified, as this too is well recorded in both the Bible and non-Biblical sources. So whether you believe the New Testament or not these are the facts that both Christian and most non-Christians believe. However, Mary and most of the Early believers all said they had seen Him alive again, even when being tortured to death and this is why we still have this movement 1987 years later.

 

[chair]

I agree with some of your reasoning but based on the balance of probabilities your anti-arguments are ultimately more unlikely than the most logical outcomes, which have resulted in the situation we currently have. i.e. the largest religion on earth.

I mean you have to look at this movement from it's origins, when Mary realised it was Jesus talking to her and not the Gardener, to over 2 billion believers today. Everything must be taken on balance. You must also realise from what you have said that by your same reasoning it would cast serious doubt on your Old Testament too.

Also you mentioned how being a popular religion preserved the manuscripts but of course Christianity was a very unpopular religion for the first few hundred years. That said some might argue that once it got popular it actually started to loose it's substance for existing in the first place, i.e. the truth.

The fact is Historians accept Jesus was a real person because of the evidence for His existence and they also accept that He was crucified, as this too is well recorded in both the Bible and non-Biblical sources. So whether you believe the New Testament or not these are the facts that both Christian and most non-Christians believe. However, Mary and most of the Early believers all said they had seen Him alive again, even when being tortured to death and this is why we still have this movement 1987 years later.

So we have gotten to "truth by probability" and "truth by popularity"? Truth by willingness to undergo torture or death (as reported in Christian sources....). By these measure I should become a Muslim.

I am fully aware that the Old Testament can be seriously doubted. But I am not trying to convince anybody that it is true. I accept it for the same reason Jesus did: tradition.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So we have gotten to "truth by probability" and "truth by popularity"? Truth by willingness to undergo torture or death (as reported in Christian sources....). By these measure I should become a Muslim.

I am fully aware that the Old Testament can be seriously doubted. But I am not trying to convince anybody that it is true. I accept it for the same reason Jesus did: tradition.

That reasoning is contradictory, it's like one sauce for the goose and another for the gander and I'm not basing my belief on popularity. Probability is fine for establishing what is most likely to be true rather than making assumptions say.

However, what you say about traditions is perhaps the important thing here, because if that is the only reason you believe in Judaism (which is a shaky reason to believe in something but hay-ho) then Christianity is full of traditions too. Thing is are you going to say that that 'sauce' is no good for your goose?

 

[chair]

That reasoning is contradictory, it's like one sauce for the goose and another for the gander and I'm not basing my belief on popularity. Probability is fine for establishing what is most likely to be true rather than making assumptions say.

However, what you say about traditions is perhaps the important thing here, because if that is the only reason you believe in Judaism (which is a shaky reason to believe in something but hay-ho) then Christianity is full of traditions too. Thing is are you going to say that that 'sauce' is no good for your goose?

I am not asking you or anybody else to accept our traditions. I don't expect anybody else to be convinced that way. It is not "shaky" in the least. If it was we'd have disappeared a long long time ago. That tradition is the only basis we (or you, for that matter) have for accepting the Hebrew Bible. You have no basis for accepting the New Testament besides Church tradition-despite your attempts to pretend otherwise.

Also, please note that this is not like "Christianity being full of traditions.". I am talking about my family, my parents, my grandparents and so on. My tribal traditions, if you like. If you have different traditions in your family- fine.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I am not asking you or anybody else to accept our traditions. I don't expect anybody else to be convinced that way. It is not "shaky" in the least. If it was we'd have disappeared a long long time ago. That tradition is the only basis we (or you, for that matter) have for accepting the Hebrew Bible. You have no basis for accepting the New Testament besides Church tradition-despite your attempts to pretend otherwise.

Also, please note that this is not like "Christianity being full of traditions.". I am talking about my family, my parents, my grandparents and so on. My tribal traditions, if you like. If you have different traditions in your family- fine.

Well although I disagree, as I believe there are many ways to come to belief in something, I do agree that tradition can support the validity of a belief, but now I realise that this is all you need then that's fine.

Now the reason Christians tell others why they believe in the New Testament is because this was a teaching Jesus taught. (If you want me to explain that I will).

Okay fine. So you believe in the Hebrew Bible because of tradition. Now many Christians also have same reason for believing in the New Testament. So why is this not good enough for you too?

 

[chair]

Well although I disagree, as I believe there are many ways to come to belief in something, I do agree that tradition can support the validity of a belief, but now I realise that this is all you need then that's fine.

Now the reason Christians tell others why they believe in the New Testament is because this was a teaching Jesus taught. (If you want me to explain that I will).

Okay fine. So you believe in the Hebrew Bible because of tradition. Now many Christians also have same reason for believing in the New Testament. So why is this not good enough for you too?

Because I am not Christian.

 

[beameup]

There are a few references to God in human form. That verse in Exodus, for example. Or Adam hearing God walking in the Garden of Eden. How does one get from that to your Christian beliefs?

Obviously there were tens of thousands of devout Jews that clearly understood the Tanakh in the first century, and embraced the Nazarene.
However to the majority, they simply didn't understand the Tanakh, and Isaiah speaks of them in chapter 29:

The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”
Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, “Read this, please.” And he says, “I cannot for I am not literate.”

Therefore the Lord said:

“Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,"

An so it goes to this very day, almost 2 millennia later....

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Because I am not Christian.

Sounds like a catch 22. Surly you're beliefs should be based on a better reason than; 'It's just because my parents and family believe this'. I mean you would be a Hindu now if your parents were Hindu.

 

[chair]

Sounds like a catch 22. Surly you're beliefs should be based on a better reason than; 'It's just because my parents and family believe this'. I mean you would be a Hindu now if your parents were Hindu.

I belong to a tribe (actually a nation- but this is better understood as a tribal thing). My tribe has ancient traditions. Judaism is not a religion like Christianity. It is tribal religion. Members of the tribe do not expect others to accept our religion. If others do- they join the tribe.

There is something else playing here: Jews don't "believe in God." We know that there is a God. We know because we have had experience with him, starting from the time of the Exodus. This isn't knowledge out of a book. It is collective memory. Tribal knowledge, if you like. I know the concept seems odd to modern western ears- but it is real.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I belong to a tribe (actually a nation- but this is better understood as a tribal thing). My tribe has ancient traditions. Judaism is not a religion like Christianity. It is tribal religion. Members of the tribe do not expect others to accept our religion. If others do- they join the tribe.

There is something else playing here: Jews don't "believe in God." We know that there is a God. We know because we have had experience with him, starting from the time of the Exodus. This isn't knowledge out of a book. It is collective memory. Tribal knowledge, if you like. I know the concept seems odd to modern western ears- but it is real.

I understand all of that very well from your perspective, I have studied Judaism, after all Jesus was Jewish and I have joined His Jewish tribe myself so to speak; I have been grafted in as Paul the Benjaminite said. That all said genetically we are all of the tribe of Abraham. If you don't believe me watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhGk9LYuUE

This is why Jesus taught that the New Covenant He was making was a spiritual covenant which allows anyone to connect directly to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob though Himself and that by believing in Him we are cleansed of all sins which guarantees us a place in Heaven.

This is opposed to the old covenants of being part of, or joining, the tribe that is descended from Abraham and trying to following its laws that only allows a connection to God through the priesthood (Rabbis now, sort of) and MAY or MAY NOT get you a place in Heaven, (which it doesn't actually).

 

[chair]

I understand all of that very well from your perspective, I have studied Judaism, after all Jesus was Jewish and I have joined His Jewish tribe myself so to speak; I have been grafted in as Paul the Benjaminite said. That all said genetically we are all of the tribe of Abraham. If you don't believe me watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGhGk9LYuUE

This is why Jesus taught that the New Covenant He was making was a spiritual covenant which allows anyone to connect directly to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob though Himself and that by believing in Him we are cleansed of all sins which guarantees us a place in Heaven.

This is opposed to the old covenants of being part of, or joining, the tribe that is descended from Abraham and trying to following its laws that only allows a connection to God through the priesthood (Rabbis now, sort of) and MAY or MAY NOT get you a place in Heaven, (which it doesn't actually).

Obsession with the afterlife is not one of my faults.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Obsession with the afterlife is not one of my faults.

Well there's only a few options regarding the afterlife:

1. If there isn't one then we're good, no need to think about it.

2. If there is one then what is it? And if there is, is there a good and bad place to this afterlife that we might have to go to, and how can I get into the good place rather than the bad place.

Now option one is a mute point therefore can be ignored. Option 2 however could last an eternity and therefore should be the most important question we could ever ask ourselves.

Not being obsessed with the afterlife is currently your second biggest fault.

 

[chair]

Well there's only a few options regarding the afterlife:

1. If there isn't one then we're good, no need to think about it.

2. If there is one then what is it? And if there is, is there a good and bad place to this afterlife that we might have to go to, and how can I get into the good place rather than the bad place.

Now option one is a mute point therefore can be ignored. Option 2 however could last an eternity and therefore should be the most important question we could ever ask ourselves.

Not being obsessed with the afterlife is currently your second biggest fault.

When God tells me to worry about the afterlife, I will.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Okay then do you believe these verses have already been fulfilled or not? Or what do you think about them:

Malachi 4
1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.4“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

Isaiah 13:9-11
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

 

[chair]

Okay then do you believe these verses have already been fulfilled or not? Or what do you think about them:

Malachi 4
1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.4“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

Isaiah 13:9-11
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

I don't know what you are driving at here.

I do like this verse:
Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I don't know what you are driving at here.

I do like this verse:
Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel

I meant; 'do you have any beliefs about what will happen in the future, in regards to the Biblical prophecy's?'

 

[daqq]

5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.

Yohanan Eliyahu already came, (a meshiach-anointed one having the Spirit of Eliyahu upon him, (the Spirit of all the prophets)), and they did unto him whatsoever they desired, and karath-cut-off his head, just as it is written of him in Daniel and Zechariah.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Yohanan Eliyahu already came, (a meshiach-anointed one having the Spirit of Eliyahu upon him, (the Spirit of all the prophets)), and they did unto him whatsoever they desired, and karath-cut-off his head, just as it is written of him in Daniel and Zechariah.

Mathew 17
10The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”11Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Jesus said this after John the Baptist was dead.

Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things."

Mmmm How can Elijah still be yet to come if he was John the Baptist as well? Quite the conundrum but the answers are all in the Bible and in the Words of Jesus.