ECT Does Romans 9 support Individual Election?

[Interplanner]

That time mentioned in 1:10 is the present. D'ism completely underestimates the present because it wants to see things happen in the land of Israel, no matter what the NT says.

We can tell that it is the present from several other things said there (the power of God at work now in the believers), but especially in v21 where the fulness is in this age but extends to the next.

The thing is, v15+ is a prayer THAT PEOPLE WOULD SEE THIS. I wonder if D'ist's ever pray it?

 

[Nang]

Let's say you buy a plane ticket online from your nearest airport to Paris, France. You get on the plane. The pilot comes on the intercom and says "Welcome to flight XYZ to Paris, France."

Now, Nang, tell me this:

Was the plane predetermined to go to Paris before you bought the ticket?

I do not entertain vapid hypothetical analogies . . . if you want a biblical answer, ask a biblical question.

 

[Nang]

That time mentioned in 1:10 is the present. D'ism completely underestimates the present because it wants to see things happen in the land of Israel, no matter what the NT says.

We can tell that it is the present from several other things said there (the power of God at work now in the believers), but especially in v21 where the fulness is in this age but extends to the next.

The thing is, v15+ is a prayer THAT PEOPLE WOULD SEE THIS. I wonder if D'ist's ever pray it?

Indeed. Good question . . .

 

[JudgeRightly]

I do not entertain vapid hypothetical analogies . . . if you want a biblical answer, ask a biblical question.

Nang, was the plane predestined to go to Paris regardless of if you were on it?

Please don't evade my question.

 

[Nang]

Nang, was the plane predestined to go to Paris regardless of if you were on it?

Please don't evade my question.

You ask without knowing the scriptural significance and definition of "predestination."

An airline schedule is not in any way similar to Godly predestination of souls.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You ask without knowing the scriptural significance and definition of "predestination."

An airline schedule is not in any way similar to Godly predestination of souls.

I'm not talking about the schedule, so much as I'm talking about the plane.

You see, the plane was predetermined to go to Paris, even if you weren't on it, in the same way that those who have a relationship with God will be saved. If someone doesn't have a relationship with God, then they never got on the plane with the other believers.

God predetermined the plane, or the group, to be saved, the individuals had to choose to get on/in it.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not talking about the schedule, so much as I'm talking about the plane.

You see, the plane was predetermined to go to Paris, even if you weren't on it, in the same way that those who have a relationship with God will be saved. If someone doesn't have a relationship with God, then they never got on the plane with the other believers.

God predetermined the plane, or the group, to be saved, the individuals had to choose to get on/in it.

Exactly. God predetermined that those IN CHRIST (in the Elect One) would be conformed into the image of the Son.

 

[Nang]

I'm not talking about the schedule, so much as I'm talking about the plane.

You see, the plane was predetermined to go to Paris, even if you weren't on it, in the same way that those who have a relationship with God will be saved. If someone doesn't have a relationship with God, then they never got on the plane with the other believers.

God predetermined the plane, or the group, to be saved, the individuals had to choose to get on/in it.

Sorry, but this analogy falls way short of explaining the doctrine of Godly "predestination."

To truly comprehend divine predestination, one must first acknowledge the absolute sovereignty of God, and abandon all vestiges of clinging to "free-will" choices or decisions.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sorry, but this analogy falls way short of explaining the doctrine of Godly "predestination."

To truly comprehend divine predestination, one must first acknowledge the absolute sovereignty of God, and abandon all vestiges of clinging to "free-will" choices or decisions.

And yet I don't see you offering up an explanation or analogy to how predestination does work.

You're essentially saying, "believe me, my beliefs are right, your beliefs are wrong, and you won't understand mine until you believe the same as I do."

Except that's not how logic and reason works.

Sure, planes aren't in the Bible, but the concept/idea that it's a group of people who will be saved, and not hand-picked individuals, is Biblical.

 

[Nang]

And yet I don't see you offering up an explanation or analogy to how predestination does work.

That is probably because I am loathe to submit to demands . . .

You're essentially saying, "believe me, my beliefs are right, your beliefs are wrong, and you won't understand mine until you believe the same as I do."

I have responded with nothing of the sort. In fact, you are doing all the "saying" so far in this exchange, and what you are presenting to me as argument is merely hypothetical analogy, which I rarely ever respond to at all.

Except that's not how logic and reason works.

Sure, planes aren't in the Bible, but the concept/idea that it's a group of people who will be saved, and not hand-picked individuals, is Biblical.

If I thought you were being logical, reasonable, or biblical, I would engage you in discussion. I have offered you the premise for a logical, reasonable, and biblical explanation on the doctrine of predestination, but you did not respond to admitting to the absolute sovereignty of God, which would be necessary for further conversation on the matter.

So, it is up to you, whether you want to proceed further or not, but to do so, you will have to volunteer to relinguish the notion that free-will decisions of mere creatures influence the predeterminations of Creator God in any way.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That time mentioned in 1:10 is the present. D'ism completely underestimates the present because it wants to see things happen in the land of Israel, no matter what the NT says.

We can tell that it is the present from several other things said there (the power of God at work now in the believers), but especially in v21 where the fulness is in this age but extends to the next.

The thing is, v15+ is a prayer THAT PEOPLE WOULD SEE THIS. I wonder if D'ist's ever pray it?

Oh. From which commentary did you glean this wisdom?

 

[Interplanner]

Predestination is through Christ. Every Christian doctrine must be seen as in Christ. The passage that resolves this is Jn 6:40: God's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him will have eternal life.

It does not resolve in a group. It does not resolve in an individual. It resolves in an individual who is in Christ, because Christ is the Elect.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is probably because I am loathe to submit to demands . . .

The only demand here is to be intellectually honest.

I have responded with nothing of the sort. In fact, you are doing all the "saying" so far in this exchange, and what you are presenting to me as argument is merely hypothetical analogy, which I rarely ever respond to at all.

If I thought you were being logical, reasonable, or biblical, I would engage you in discussion. I have offered you the premise for a logical, reasonable, and biblical explanation on the doctrine of predestination, but you did not respond to admitting to the absolute sovereignty of God, which would be necessary for further conversation on the matter.

Was God sovereign before He created the universe? If so, what was He sovereign over?

So, it is up to you, whether you want to proceed further or not, but to do so, you will have to volunteer to relinguish the notion

There it is again. You, Nang, are saying this: "Admit you're wrong, concede the argument, and then we can discuss the matter."

That's not how discussion/debate/conversation works, Nang.

that free-will decisions of mere creatures influence the predeterminations of Creator God in any way.

So Moses didn't influence God's decision to not destroy Israel in Exodus 32? Moses didn't influence God's judgment upon Miriam in Numbers 12? People can't ever influence God in any way, as is shown that they have throughout the Bible?

Jeremiah 18 shows rather clearly that man can influence Him greatly, enough that where God says He will destroy or tear down because of wickedness, if man repents, God will not do that which He said He would do, but also that if God says that He will build up, if man becomes wicked, then God will not do that which He said he would do.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying:“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.”Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:1-10&version=NKJV

 

[Eagles Wings]

That is probably because I am loathe to submit to demands . .

I have responded with nothing of the sort. In fact, you are doing all the "saying" so far in this exchange, and what you are presenting to me as argument is merely hypothetical analogy, which I rarely ever respond to at all.

If I thought you were being logical, reasonable, or biblical, I would engage you in discussion. I have offered you the premise for a logical, reasonable, and biblical explanation on the doctrine of predestination, but you did not respond to admitting to the absolute sovereignty of God, which would be necessary for further conversation on the matter.

So, it is up to you, whether you want to proceed further or not, but to do so, you will have to volunteer to relinguish the notion that free-will decisions of mere creatures influence the predeterminations of Creator God in any way.

I've always appreciated the order in which you present biblical truth. First understand one principle before going to the next. In debate this is a cornerstone.

Oh, and do be intellectually honest, as those who challenge you always are.

 

[Right Divider]

This MADist erroneously interprets this verse of Scripture (out of context), as being Universal, ignoring the context that repeatedly qualifies the context and subject of Ephesians Chapter One as speaking only about those particular chosen by God in Christ for redemption. (vss 3-4)

Verses 3-13 references these particular souls twelve times as being "in Him" and the Divine process of them being "chosen," "predestined," "adopted," "redeemed, "forgiven," "inheritors," "saved," and "sealed," without once deviating from the original premise that this is a select people.

There is nothing universal about this passage of Scripture, and it cannot be so used to find the Truth it is meant to convey to those who have put their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Is the very premise of Mid Acts Dispensationalism . . Universalistic and wrong?

It would seem so.

Like most other MAD bashers, you do NOT understand MAD at all!

Your confused "theology" makes you immune to truth. Even the simplest scripture is beyond your ability to understand.

 

[Right Divider]

That time mentioned in 1:10 is the present. D'ism completely underestimates the present because it wants to see things happen in the land of Israel, no matter what the NT says.

We can tell that it is the present from several other things said there (the power of God at work now in the believers), but especially in v21 where the fulness is in this age but extends to the next.

The thing is, v15+ is a prayer THAT PEOPLE WOULD SEE THIS. I wonder if D'ist's ever pray it?

:rotfl:

Your false premise always leads you to false conclusions.

You're doomed.

 

[Tambora]

Was God sovereign before He created the universe? If so, what was He sovereign over?

Interesting question.

 

[Danoh]

Predestination is through Christ. Every Christian doctrine must be seen as in Christ. The passage that resolves this is Jn 6:40: God's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him will have eternal life.

It does not resolve in a group. It does not resolve in an individual. It resolves in an individual who is in Christ, because Christ is the Elect.

That appears to be my understanding of that through the Scripture - only AFTER a person believes is he THEN IN Christ and THEREBY AND AT THAT POINT made a part of what the Father predestinated or predetermined He would accomplish IN His Son through His Spirit IN a New Man: the Body of Christ, said Believing individual is now IN or now a member OF; Rom. 8; 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 1; etc.

Though, in your case you must've read "about" that in one of your endless and endlessly over relied on, books "about," lol

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12.

 

[Nang]

Was God sovereign before He created the universe? If so, what was He sovereign over?

Sovereignty = Authority = Power and Right

When was God ever anything other than the Sovereign, the ultimate Authority, the greatest power, with the absolute and moral right to do His will, according to His purposes and good pleasure?

The Sovereignty of God is His very essence (ousia). He is God because He is Sovereign and He is Sovereign because He is God. He is what He is. He is the great "I AM."

So, sovereignty is not determined by surrounding things, events, or even the works of created history.

Created beings, who believe they have free will, think they can operate like God and be sovereign like God, but that was the original lie from the devil.

So, before doctrines can be discussed, the essence of God and the limits of mankind, must first be acknowledged.

Otherwise, you enter into a philosophical, and dialectic debate. that produces no good end.

In this instance, I would stick with defending Systematic Theology and you would end up defending "The Plot."

What is the point?

I say God is Sovereign, and never changes. You appear to hold to Open Theism that believes the opposite, and worse, that God does change because His creatures have such a great influence over Him.

No thank you . . .

 

[Nang]

That appears to be my understanding of that through the Scripture - only AFTER a person believes is he THEN IN Christ and THEREBY AND AT THAT POINT made a part of what the Father predestinated or predetermined He would accomplish IN His Son through His Spirit IN a New Man: the Body of Christ, said Believing individual is now IN or now a member OF; Rom. 8; 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 1; etc.

Though, in your case you must've read "about" that in one of your endless and endlessly over relied on, books "about," lol

Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12.

Scripture reveals souls were chosen for redemption in Christ, before creation, according to the Everlasting Covenant made amongst the Godhead. Ephesians 1:3-6