Theology Club: Does Open Theism Question/dispute the Omniscience of God
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
I'm here. Just don't believe in omniscience the way that you do
Derf
Well-known member
I understand that, but you didn't give any scripture for your view. This is where you get to show me where I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I need the correction, don't you think? If I'm right, then perhaps you need the correction. Either way, we should be able to learn from the exchange.
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We could start with the admission that "omniscience" is not in scripture.
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Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Psalm 139:1-4
Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Matthew 10:30
"But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Psalm 147:4
He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them.
Hebrews 4:13
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Psalm 139:1-3
O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
Psalm 44:21
Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
1 Chronicles 28:9
"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.
Isaiah 46:9-10
"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
1 Kings 8:39
then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men,
Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
Derf
Well-known member
Sure it is. 1 John 3:20.
Ya know, it'd be easier if you post them in sequential order... That way if there are multiple passages from the same chapter, you can group them together.
Please explain how this means that God, Who elsewhere in Scripture is said to have searched the hearts of men, knows everything about everything from every moment of time, instead of that God simply knows the nature of man, which is what the context indicates:
“When there is famine in the land, pestilence or blight or mildew, locusts or grasshoppers; when their enemy besieges them in the land of their cities; whatever plague or whatever sickness there is;whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple:then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers. - 1 Kings 8:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Kings8:37-40&version=NKJV
Not sure which version you're using...
But here's the NKJV with context:
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.Consider now, for the Lord has chosen you to build a house for the sanctuary; be strong, and do it.” - 1 Chronicles 28:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Chronicles28:9-10&version=NKJV
Please explain how this verse, again, does not mean that God simply searches men's hearts and has the ability to understand every intent, and instead means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.
Same as above. Please explain how this means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.
Pretty sure I explained this one above in a previous post. Not 100% sure though.
God searched. Why would He need to search if He knows everything about everything from every moment in time?
Verse 4: God being the Creator of the stars can know everything about His creation.
Verse 5: Does it say His knowledge is infinite? or does it say His understanding? Because those are two very different things.
Let's say I have a huge library that contains every Chinese scroll and manuscript that has ever been written and ever will be written. I don't speak Chinese. I have no understanding of all the knowledge that is contained in those pages.
Again, "understanding" is not the same as "knowledge."
“Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors.Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. - Isaiah 46:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah46:8-11&version=NKJV
Context helps.
BR, if someone sets up start and finish lines for a race, does that mean he will know exactly what will happen during the race? NO!
It just means that he has "declared" the end from the beginning.
As far as declaring from ancient times things that are not yet done... Is not God capable of planning ahead, and able to bring about things that He wants accomplished?
So, again, how does this say that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time?
Same as above. Are you starting to see a pattern here...?
God can't examine something and know everything about it? If God is "omniscient", then He has no reason to examine anything, because he's already aware of everything about what He would otherwise examine.
Speaking of matters of the heart, which, as above, simply means that God knows how men think.
----
Again, I ask:
Should I give you verses that say that God learned something, or that something occurred that He had not considered before?
Please explain how this means that God, Who elsewhere in Scripture is said to have searched the hearts of men, knows everything about everything from every moment of time, instead of that God simply knows the nature of man, which is what the context indicates:
“When there is famine in the land, pestilence or blight or mildew, locusts or grasshoppers; when their enemy besieges them in the land of their cities; whatever plague or whatever sickness there is;whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple:then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers. - 1 Kings 8:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Kings8:37-40&version=NKJV
Not sure which version you're using...
But here's the NKJV with context:
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.Consider now, for the Lord has chosen you to build a house for the sanctuary; be strong, and do it.” - 1 Chronicles 28:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Chronicles28:9-10&version=NKJV
Please explain how this verse, again, does not mean that God simply searches men's hearts and has the ability to understand every intent, and instead means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.
Same as above. Please explain how this means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.
Pretty sure I explained this one above in a previous post. Not 100% sure though.
God searched. Why would He need to search if He knows everything about everything from every moment in time?
Verse 4: God being the Creator of the stars can know everything about His creation.
Verse 5: Does it say His knowledge is infinite? or does it say His understanding? Because those are two very different things.
Let's say I have a huge library that contains every Chinese scroll and manuscript that has ever been written and ever will be written. I don't speak Chinese. I have no understanding of all the knowledge that is contained in those pages.
Again, "understanding" is not the same as "knowledge."
“Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors.Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. - Isaiah 46:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah46:8-11&version=NKJV
Context helps.
BR, if someone sets up start and finish lines for a race, does that mean he will know exactly what will happen during the race? NO!
It just means that he has "declared" the end from the beginning.
As far as declaring from ancient times things that are not yet done... Is not God capable of planning ahead, and able to bring about things that He wants accomplished?
So, again, how does this say that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time?
Same as above. Are you starting to see a pattern here...?
God can't examine something and know everything about it? If God is "omniscient", then He has no reason to examine anything, because he's already aware of everything about what He would otherwise examine.
Speaking of matters of the heart, which, as above, simply means that God knows how men think.
----
Again, I ask:
Should I give you verses that say that God learned something, or that something occurred that He had not considered before?
Sure, why not.
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] God says to Abraham "Now I know" that Abraham would do anything for Him.
But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.”And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:11-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis22:11-12&version=NKJV
God tells Jeremiah that it did not "come into My mind" that Israel would sacrifice their children to Molech.
And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ - Jeremiah 32:35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah32:35&version=NKJV
Even Jesus "increased in wisdom."
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. - Luke 2:52 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke2:52&version=NKJV
Omniscient (aside from meaning "all-knowing,") also means "all-wise," or "having all wisdom."
If Jesus grew in wisdom, then He couldn't be "omniscient," He couldn't have all wisdom.
But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.”And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:11-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis22:11-12&version=NKJV
God tells Jeremiah that it did not "come into My mind" that Israel would sacrifice their children to Molech.
And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ - Jeremiah 32:35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah32:35&version=NKJV
Even Jesus "increased in wisdom."
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. - Luke 2:52 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke2:52&version=NKJV
Omniscient (aside from meaning "all-knowing,") also means "all-wise," or "having all wisdom."
If Jesus grew in wisdom, then He couldn't be "omniscient," He couldn't have all wisdom.
Derf
Well-known member
These are all good verses, BR. Can we discuss them in some detail? Some, maybe all, are merely subsets of omniscience, like knowing the number of hairs on our heads. Or knowing that a sparrow has fallen to the ground (Matt 10:29, one you didn't include). Knowing numbers of hairs or fallen sparrows does not extrapolate to knowing everything, but it is evidence of God knowing something hard to know, or God being omniscient in a particular area.
The type of subset I will focus most on is the type that can be counted as present knowledge (like the hairs and sparrows). I'll mark the ones I think are present knowledge with a red {PK} at the end. While verses talking about present knowledge are glorifying to God, they aren't necessarily relevant to the discussion about God knowing everything about the future, which is where traditional theists and open theists part ways.
Another subset that might be represented is those that talk about future knowledge, where God knows something that's going to happen. Nobody denies that this is possible for at least some things, and the question then is whether it includes everything that's future. I'll mark those that I think are this type with a red {FK}. There are a couple I'm not sure about. I'll mark those with a red {NS}.
You will likely disagree with some of my assessments. If so, please tell me which ones and why.
My point here is to eliminate the present knowledge verses, so that we have fewer we need to deal with. Then it will be easier to discuss the future knowledge or "not sure" verses. I figure "not sure" allows those to be future knowledge for the discussion, anyway.
The type of subset I will focus most on is the type that can be counted as present knowledge (like the hairs and sparrows). I'll mark the ones I think are present knowledge with a red {PK} at the end. While verses talking about present knowledge are glorifying to God, they aren't necessarily relevant to the discussion about God knowing everything about the future, which is where traditional theists and open theists part ways.
Another subset that might be represented is those that talk about future knowledge, where God knows something that's going to happen. Nobody denies that this is possible for at least some things, and the question then is whether it includes everything that's future. I'll mark those that I think are this type with a red {FK}. There are a couple I'm not sure about. I'll mark those with a red {NS}.
You will likely disagree with some of my assessments. If so, please tell me which ones and why.
My point here is to eliminate the present knowledge verses, so that we have fewer we need to deal with. Then it will be easier to discuss the future knowledge or "not sure" verses. I figure "not sure" allows those to be future knowledge for the discussion, anyway.
We can discuss that which you consider to be future knowledge. That is fine with me. Because God cannot contradict Himself.
Derf
Well-known member
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION]: Thank you for your response. I've copied your verse list post again, with the "present knowledge" verses removed. I retained the verses that had any "future knowledge" parts or "not sure" parts. And I will insert my comments in between the verses.
I listed this as FK, but in reality it isn't talking about "knowledge". It's talking about "understanding". Most definitions of "understanding" deal with a capability to comprehend or discern about something that exists or has already happened. I don't think we need to limit it to that in God's case, because I think He will comprehend anything that happens, and likely has already considered it as a possibility. But the one thing it doesn't say is that God knows something that will happen in the future. I do't think this verse is particularly helpful for traditional theists.
This is one of the primary verses used against open theism. I commented on it already, as "Gotquestions.org" used it in the article you copied from their site.
I'll go a little further here and say that "my thought from afar" and "all my ways" COULD have a future knowledge meaning. But they could also have a present knowledge meaning. In such cases, the more conservative one should apply, unless we know better from a different source. "More conservative" means "less all-encompassing", meaning we don't want to extrapolate beyond what is intended by the author.
The "You scrutinize my path" portion I marked as "future knowledge", because I think God is looking out for where we are going, not just where we are. But this portion explains that God doesn't just "know" about our future path, but He is "scrutinizing" it, or "studying" it. Some translations say "observing" my path. It is a decent verse to say that God is obtaining knowledge about something in the future.
This verse is talking about FK in the first half and PK in the second half. But the way it talks about future knowledge is to say God will "find out" something. Thus, this verse actually has God learning or discovering something in the future that He didn't know in the past. It's a great open theism verse!
Is 46 is definitely a verse that talks about future knowledge. And it talks about God already possessing future knowledge, not just obtaining it. Of all your references, this one is the one that carries the most weight, in my opinion. But it also does something else. It tells us the basis of God's future knowledge. When it says "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'", it is saying that the things God knows will happen in the future, He knows because they are His purpose and His good pleasure.
Think about that for a minute. If God knows what's in the future because it is part of His purpose and His good pleasure, then if God knows a sin will be committed (think of the worst possible sin, like torturing and raping a child, perhaps), then the reason He knows it will happen is because it is His purpose that it happen, His "good pleasure" that it happen.
If you don't think such is the case, then I think you have to allow that God doesn't know "everything" that is going to happen, or if He does, Is 46:9-10 is only talking about things that really ARE God's purpose and good pleasure. Thus, though it is a "future knowledge" passage, it isn't a "everything" passage.
Now we have a decent synopsis of the open theist view, and it comes from the subset of future knowledge passages you provided (thanks again for those).
Open theism says:
1. God doesn't always know what free agents are going to do in the future, but He watches and observes them, both their actions and their thoughts.
2. God knows what His own purposes are, and He will accomplish them, in spite of anything anyone else can do.
3. Because of this, God can declare things that will happen in the future, but not necessarily EVERYTHING that will happen in the future.
Now, if you agree with my synopsis, and you agree with my assessments above, then you can see that the Bible doesn't seem to define God's omniscience in terms of anything in the future, except what He plans to do. This is comforting, since we know that He plans to resurrect us, and we can take comfort in knowing that He will be able to accomplish it.
Derf
Well-known member
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION]
What do you think about what I posted? I recommend, as [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] suggested, that you don't just agree with what I'm saying--go find others who are good bible expositors and disagree with open theism, like Matt Slick and Bruce Ware. But just as you shouldn't take my opinion as fact, don't take theirs as fact, either--don't just disagree with what I'm saying--discern! Read their arguments, and then compare them, and let's talk about it. As I said before, if I'm wrong, I appreciate the correction. If you are wrong, I hope you are open to correction, too.
What I've found is that most of those against open theism are basing their opposition on one of two things:
1. It goes against the traditional view
2. They fear the ramifications--if God doesn't know the future, then how can He guarantee that He will win the battle for control of the universe.
In the case of #1, this is a strong argument--we should not lightly discard traditional views of parts of Christian doctrine. But that doesn't mean we NEVER discard any traditional views. Sometimes tradition can be wrong.
On #2, if God is powerful to save, then He doesn't have to know every, intimate, little detail about our lives for us to know that He can save us. In fact, if He knows the future, and the future is settled, then there are some of us that are not going to be saved NO MATTER WHAT GOD TRIES TO DO ABOUT IT--it's already settled, right, and if God changed something, then the future wasn't settled, unless He set it all up from the very beginning?
That's Calvinism, and it makes God the only free agent. (AMR might disagree mightily, here.) And if there's no free agent, then God is merely putting on a play for Himself, and the Bible is commanding puppets to love their Maker--a command they cannot keep.
What do you think about what I posted? I recommend, as [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] suggested, that you don't just agree with what I'm saying--go find others who are good bible expositors and disagree with open theism, like Matt Slick and Bruce Ware. But just as you shouldn't take my opinion as fact, don't take theirs as fact, either--don't just disagree with what I'm saying--discern! Read their arguments, and then compare them, and let's talk about it. As I said before, if I'm wrong, I appreciate the correction. If you are wrong, I hope you are open to correction, too.
What I've found is that most of those against open theism are basing their opposition on one of two things:
1. It goes against the traditional view
2. They fear the ramifications--if God doesn't know the future, then how can He guarantee that He will win the battle for control of the universe.
In the case of #1, this is a strong argument--we should not lightly discard traditional views of parts of Christian doctrine. But that doesn't mean we NEVER discard any traditional views. Sometimes tradition can be wrong.
On #2, if God is powerful to save, then He doesn't have to know every, intimate, little detail about our lives for us to know that He can save us. In fact, if He knows the future, and the future is settled, then there are some of us that are not going to be saved NO MATTER WHAT GOD TRIES TO DO ABOUT IT--it's already settled, right, and if God changed something, then the future wasn't settled, unless He set it all up from the very beginning?
That's Calvinism, and it makes God the only free agent. (AMR might disagree mightily, here.) And if there's no free agent, then God is merely putting on a play for Himself, and the Bible is commanding puppets to love their Maker--a command they cannot keep.
Thanks, I'll take your advice and do some checking with others and do some study.
Derf
Well-known member
Sounds good. Let's talk some more when you're done, or if you have questions along the way.
And keep in mind that while Calvinists don't agree on everything, neither do open theists (as you saw from [MENTION=4167]Stripe[/MENTION]'s posts). There are some spin-offs of open theism that I'm not fond of. We should be able to take the good/true from any position, but leave the bad/untrue behind. Calvinists aren't evil if they depend on Jesus Christ for their salvation. Neither are open theists.
Ask Mr. Religion
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I do disagree. Yours is but a terrible caricature of the actualities of Reformed thinking and doctrine. More importantly, all shouting caps above assume God is trying to do something, outwitting, outplaying, and outlasting His apparent autonomous moral agents. A Survivor® God.
In truth, this is what open theism actually views God to be, for He is not really omniscient (knowing all things past, present, and future), but only knows what has happened. Per many open theists, God does not even know what will happen until it happens. And thusly, He cannot know (in the epistemological sense of knowing) what will happen. Instead, God is just very, very, smart, and really, really good at predicting outcomes (God's knowing here is in only in 99 and 44 one-hundreth percent Ivory Soap® probabilities, for after all, God can be surprised) like some master chess player, then scrambling about to order things around what is going on. Why God even needs others to inform Him about what is going on or He has to "go down now" to visit His creation to determine what is actually happening. Apparently, the devil himself knows more about what is going on here on earth than God at times.
Rather than erect straw men, review what I have had to say on the matter here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...vinist-s-Response-(Ask-Mr-Religion-vs-Enyart)
Perhaps then you will have a more accurate picture of what Reformed and/or Calvinism actually holds.
Don't want to read what mean, old, AMR writes? Fine. Go here and read someone else. After all, it is not as if plenty of answers and discussion has been provided on what the Reformed actually believe. When you have the time, by the way, please point me to a thorough standard systematic theology work for open theism. You know, a systematic theological textbook treatment of all the major doctrines versus the odd book here or blog post there.
Too many think open theism has not been given any examination at all, and the openist labors behind the jellyfish newness such that any and all objections to it can be waved off with "well, that is not what open theists believe" or "I'm and open theist, but I do not believe that", etc.
Nonsense abounds. :AMR:
AMR
glorydaz
Well-known member
That verse seems to be in relation to what a person has done.
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
That's a Greek phrase: ginosko pas.
"Omniscient" is Latin.
What do we know that makes the two equivalent?
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Derf
Well-known member
I agree, and I said so (though not as well articulated) to Bright Raven. My point was to counter [MENTION=4167]Stripe[/MENTION]'s contention that "omniscience" isn't in the bible.
Derf
Well-known member
I agree there is very little latin in the original bible.
lain:I believe, as we speak a language not in the original text, and direct translation of words is often difficult, that we are looking for the concepts, not the actual words. Omniscience as a concept is definitely in the bible--but it seems to be defined and caveated, as [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] pointed out.
But if we're going to look for actual words, we look for those that are translated to words that match the concept. "Knowing all things" is a perfect match for "omniscience".
Here are several different english translations of ginosko pas (with accompanying phraseology retained):
and knoweth all things.
and knows all things.
and he knows everything.
and he knows everything.
and he knows everything.
and he knows all things.
and knows all things.
and he knows everything.
and knoweth all things.
and He doth know all things.
and knows all things.
and knoweth all things.
and knows all things.
They are amazingly consistent--you have a choice between "knowing all things" and "knowing everything". Nor did I see any English translations that offered anything else. And here's what "omniscience" means: "the state of knowing everything."
TADA!