Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[beloved57]

My answer to the OP is..."YES".
Thanks be to God.
In David's psalms which Paul quoted, (Ps 14, 53), David was talking about "the fool", not "all men".

Your answer is contrary to scripture, for the natural man doesnt seek after God, nor does he understand God. To take it a step further, the natural man who is in the flesh, he cannot please God period ! Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Clete]

The thread is about the natural man doesnt seek God, not the True God, nor does he understand the True God.

Yeah, I know that! I've shown biblical proof that your idiotic position is not only false but blasphemous!

Now answer the question!

 

[Hoping]

The thread is about the natural man doesnt seek God, not the True God, nor does he understand the True God.

I don't understand why you feel we must remain natural men.
It is written..."And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32)
Doesn't that show you that the OT scriptures saying nobody can be drawn to God have been eclipsed by new news?
"Good news" too, thanks be to God.

 

[Hoping]

Your answer is contrary to scripture, for the natural man doesnt seek after God, nor does he understand God. To take it a step further, the natural man who is in the flesh, he cannot please God period ! Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

You really aught to take a look at the next verse..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9)
Romans 6:3-6 shows how that change was accomplished.
The "natural" man was crucified with Christ and buried with Him.

 

[beloved57]

hoping

I don't understand why you feel we must remain natural men.

Some wont, whom God is pleased to make Spiritual by the New Birth, but until and if God does this miraculous work, man remains a natural man.

 

[beloved57]

You really aught to take a look at the next verse..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9)
Romans 6:3-6 shows how that change was accomplished.
The "natural" man was crucified with Christ and buried with Him.

Rom 8:8 doesnt change, they which are in the flesh cannot please God !

 

[Clete]

Why is this fool allowed to continue on a public forum if he is going to systematically refuse to engage the discussions that he himself started?

If he wants a personal blog site then make him go buy a domain name and start one!

 

[Clete]

@beloved57,

If the doctrines of Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace are both true then what does Luke 7:30 mean?

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

The word "will" in that sentence is "boulē". It's the same word that Luke used in Acts 2:23, 4:28 & 13:36 and that the author of Hebrews used in Hebrews 6:17....

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;​

​

Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.​

​

Acts 13:36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;​

​

Hebrews 6:17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,​

"Boule" is the strongest word available to discuss the will of God. Not that it would matter because there is not the slightest whim of God's that does not go unfulfilled, according to Calvinist doctrine. Even the very wills of men are precisely as God determined that they would be an eternity before the first particle of matter was created.

Luke 7:30 explicitly tells us that God wanted for the Pharisees and lawyers to get baptized (i.e. have faith in God and obey His commands) and that they did not do it. Yet you say that the will of God cannot be resisted; that the natural man cannot seek God and that those He calls cannot refuse Him. You say that that those who refuse to repent do so because God chose not to show them mercy.

What then could Luke 7:30 possibly mean?

Clete

P.S. Since B57 will not answer the question or even engage the subject, the answer is that Luke 7:30 means that Calvinism is false. That's what it means.

 

[beloved57]

@beloved57,

If the doctrines of Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace are both true then what does Luke 7:30 mean?

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

The word "will" in that sentence is "boulē". It's the same word that Luke used in Acts 2:23, 4:28 & 13:36 and that the author of Hebrews used in Hebrews 6:17....

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;​

​

Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.​

​

Acts 13:36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;​

​

Hebrews 6:17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,​

"Boule" is the strongest word available to discuss the will of God. Not that it would matter because there is not the slightest whim of God's that does not go unfulfilled, according to Calvinist doctrine. Even the very wills of men are precisely as God determined that they would be an eternity before the first particle of matter was created.

Luke 7:30 explicitly tells us that God wanted for the Pharisees and lawyers to get baptized (i.e. have faith in God and obey His commands) and that they did not do it. Yet you say that the will of God cannot be resisted; that the natural man cannot seek God and that those He calls cannot refuse Him. You say that that those who refuse to repent do so because God chose not to show them mercy.

What then could Luke 7:30 possibly mean?

Clete

P.S. Since B57 will not answer the question or even engage the subject, the answer is that Luke 7:30 means that Calvinism is false. That's what it means.

There is no contradiction except in your apparent understanding. Rom 3:11 and Rom 8:8 are true no matter how many scriptures you quote.

 

[Hoping]

Rom 8:8 doesnt change, they which are in the flesh cannot please God !

And some undergo the circumcision done without hands, casting off the flesh.
It is written..."And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:10-13)
Thank God for water baptism for the killing of the "old man".
The natural man won't submit to God, but can change to something better, that will submit to God.
I thank God for the ability not to remain a natural man, and then turn from sin and get baptized in water and then by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Right Divider]

And some undergo the circumcision done without hands, casting off the flesh.
It is written..."And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:10-13)
Thank God for water baptism for the killing of the "old man".
The natural man won't submit to God, but can change to something better, that will submit to God.
I thank God for the ability not to remain a natural man, and then turn from sin and get baptized in water and then by the Holy Spirit.

It's funny that you see "the circumcision made without hands" but think that the baptism is water.

Baptism is about identification. Most baptisms in the Bible are NOT water. The water baptism was for the Israelite priesthood.

Check these SIX references to baptism in TWO verses that are NOT water:
Matt 20:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(20:22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (20:23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

You need to move on to what God is doing today and get away from what He was doing with Israel.

 

[Hoping]

It funny that you see "the circumcision made without hands" but think that the baptism is water.

That is what is written in many places.

Baptism is about identification.

Got a scripture for that statement?

Most baptisms in the Bible are NOT water. The water baptism was for the Israelite priesthood.

Again, please provide some instance of that statement.
I see..."Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matt 3:5-6)
They were not all priests.

Check these SIX references to baptism in TWO verses that are NOT water:
Matt 20:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(20:22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (20:23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

By finding two places where the baptism (not specifically for the remission of past sins) is NOT with water, it only leaves ALL the rest that are with water...excluding the obvious ones dealing with the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You need to move on to what God is doing today and get away from what He was doing with Israel.

What God has the power to do with Israel He has also used for the Gentiles.
He has given us the gifts of repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
He has blessed us with the gift of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues.
Some have also received other gifts, ie. miracles, healings, interpretation of tongues, multiple kinds of tongues, knowledge, prophesy, and wisdom.
Plus, we are instructed to ask God for these gifts by James and John in James 1 and James 4, and 1 John 3 and 1 John 5.
Jesus Himself said we can ask for things, in Matt 7, Mark 6, and Luke 11.
Please don't short-change yourself.
These gift are still being given today.

 

[Right Divider]

That is what is written in many places.

Please clarify.

Got a scripture for that statement?

I gave you the scripture. Here is is again:
Matt 20:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)
(20:22) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (20:23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Again, please provide some instance of that statement.
I see..."Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." (Matt 3:5-6)
They were not all priests.

The entire nation of Israel was to be priests to the entire rest of the world.

Exod 19:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(19:6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

By finding two places where the baptism (not specifically for the remission of past sins) is NOT with water, it only leaves ALL the rest that are with water...excluding the obvious ones dealing with the gift of the Holy Ghost.

NO, ALL the rest are NOT water. There are many, many more that are NOT water.... MOST are not water.

What God has the power to do with Israel He has also used for the Gentiles.

God separated Israel for a purpose.

 

[Clete]

There is no contradiction except in your apparent understanding. Rom 3:11 and Rom 8:8 are true no matter how many scriptures you quote.

So, "Don't believe your lying eyes!" is the full extent of your argument?

If there is no contradiction then you should be able to tell us all what Luke 7:30 means!

Why will not not EVER answer a single question that is put to you? Why are you permitted to get away with that?



And, I never denied that Romans 3:11 and Romans 8:8 are true and would never suggest that they weren't! What is false is your doctrine being read into them, as I have repeatedly demonstrated by responding directly to your posts with the both the word of God and sound reason, which you have systematically ignored and / or refused to respond to with any substance whatsoever.

Clete

 

[beloved57]

So, "Don't believe your lying eyes!" is the full extent of your argument?

If there is no contradiction then you should be able to tell us all what Luke 7:30 means!

Why will not not EVER answer a single question that is put to you? Why are you permitted to get away with that?



And, I never denied that Romans 3:11 and Romans 8:8 are true and would never suggest that they weren't! What is false is your doctrine being read into them, as I have repeatedly demonstrated by responding directly to your posts with the both the word of God and sound reason, which you have systematically ignored and / or refused to respond to with any substance whatsoever.

Clete

You bought up Lk 7:30 and you want me to tell you what it means. Why dont you tell us what it means since you bought it up. Its a shame if you bring up a scripture and dont know what it means. Everything I bring up, I explain it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You bought up Lk 7:30 and you want me to tell you what it means. Why dont you tell us what it means since you bought it up. Its a shame if you bring up a scripture and dont know what it means. Everything I bring up, I explain it.

Translation: "Oh, snap, I don't know how to address this! Um, let's see, right back at you! You tell me what it means, so that I can tell you that you're wrong!"

 

[JudgeRightly]

So, "Don't believe your lying eyes!" is the full extent of your argument?

If there is no contradiction then you should be able to tell us all what Luke 7:30 means!

Why will not not EVER answer a single question that is put to you? Why are you permitted to get away with that?



And, I never denied that Romans 3:11 and Romans 8:8 are true and would never suggest that they weren't! What is false is your doctrine being read into them, as I have repeatedly demonstrated by responding directly to your posts with the both the word of God and sound reason, which you have systematically ignored and / or refused to respond to with any substance whatsoever.

Clete

Don't forget John 5:40 also!

 

[JudgeRightly]

You bought up Lk 7:30 and you want me to tell you what it means. Why dont you tell us what it means since you bought it up. Its a shame if you bring up a scripture and dont know what it means. Everything I bring up, I explain it.

The problem, B57, is that is exactly what Clete did. But you're just too lazy to read his post to know that.

 

[beloved57]

Translation: "Oh, snap, I don't know how to address this! Um, let's see, right back at you! You tell me what it means, so that I can tell you that you're wrong!"

The verse doesnt pose any problem to me, it evidently poses one to the one who brung it up. If it doesnt, what relevance does it have to Rom 3:11 and Rom 8:8

 

[beloved57]

The problem, B57, is that is exactly what Clete did. But you're just too lazy to read his post to know that.

So now you calling me derogatory names ? Isnt that against the rules ?