Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[beloved57]

Yes, it does, B57!



The word used in Luke 7:30 is boulemai. It is the very sovereign will of God you are referring to.

It says, quite literally, that the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel (boulemai) of God.



In spite of the boulemai of God being that they repent and/or be baptized.



Interacting with their very Creator is "being left to their own devices"?



Blatantly and obviously false.



Wrong.

View attachment 3541

Regardless of what specifically the boulemai of God is referring to in that verse, be it baptism or repentance, they still rejected it, b57!



Completely irrelevant to the text being discussed.

Again, all those men did was reject/despise the counsel to be baptized.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Again, all those men did was reject/despise the counsel to be baptized.

Again: The word used in Luke 7:30 is boulemai. It is the very sovereign will of God you are referring to.

It says, quite literally, that the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel (boulemai) of God.

God's "boulemai" (sovereign will) was for them to be baptized. They refused it.

They rejected, disobeyed, God's Sovereign Will.

That utterly destroys your position that His Sovereignty cannot be disobeyed.

 

[marke]

Sorry it does no such thing, those folk just didnt want to be water baptized. They didn't see any need for repentance . They were just people left to their own devices, had nothing to do with Gods Sovereign will not being done, in fact, it was Gods Sovereign will being done. Many in israel was appointed to disobedience to the word 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Lk 2:34
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

Calvinist Zombie repetitive, sing-song, and mushy self-love narrative: I am elect. God loves me for good reasons and hates almost everyone else for good reasons, glory be to his name and soverignty.

 

[Right Divider]

Calvinist Zombie repetitive, sing-song, and mushy self-love narrative: I am elect. God loves me for good reasons and hates almost everyone else for good reasons, glory be to his name and soverignty.

Real definition of sovereignty: Authority.
Calvinist Zombie definition of sovereignty: Total control.

 

[beloved57]

Again: The word used in Luke 7:30 is boulemai. It is the very sovereign will of God you are referring to.

It says, quite literally, that the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the counsel (boulemai) of God.

God's "boulemai" (sovereign will) was for them to be baptized. They refused it.

They rejected, disobeyed, God's Sovereign Will.

That utterly destroys your position that His Sovereignty cannot be disobeyed.

I know what the word is, and it means at times advise, instruction. The pharisees refused the instruction to be baptised. It wasnt for them anyway. When John the Baptist saw these vipers coming he asked Matt 3:4-8

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

 

[JudgeRightly]

I know what the word is,

No, you clearly don't.

and it means at times advise, instruction.

"Boulemai of God" is referring to His sovereign will.

The pharisees refused the instruction to be baptised.

Which was the Boulemai of God.

You're not getting out of this, B57.

It wasnt for them anyway.

And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. - Luke 7:29-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke7:29-30&version=NKJV

The will of God, at the time, was for all of Israel to be baptized, INCLUDING the Pharisees, et al.

They rejected that will for themselves, and refused to be baptized, against God's boulemai.

When John the Baptist saw these vipers coming he asked Matt 3:4-8

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Rabbit trail, irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[marke]

I know what the word is, and it means at times advise, instruction. The pharisees refused the instruction to be baptised. It wasnt for them anyway. When John the Baptist saw these vipers coming he asked Matt 3:4-8

4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Exactly. John told them they could not get saved without first demonstrating a hatred for sin and a desire for God.

 

[beloved57]

Man by nature is dead to God, spiritually dead as a result of his fall/sin in Adam, the representative man for men naturally. Let me explain, physical death means to be dead to physical life, the spirit/soul of a person is separated from the physical body, and so spiritual death is the seperation of the soul/spirit of men from God, which is being dead to God, alienated from God and the spiritual communion and fellowship with God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

This is a simple fact of the scripture Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Clete]

Sorry it does no such thing, those folk just didnt want to be water baptized. They didn't see any need for repentance . They were just people left to their own devices, had nothing to do with Gods Sovereign will not being done,

Except that it explicitly says that God's will wasn't done. The is specifically and explicitly what it says. The ONLY reason you have for saying otherwise is that your doctrine demands it.

You read your doctrine into every passage that you can and ignore the passages that explicitly contradict your dogma. There isn't a single syllable of Calvinism in the entire bible - not one single syllable of it.

in fact, it was Gods Sovereign will being done. Many in israel was appointed to disobedience to the word 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Why can't you understand that if your reading of this is right that it makes God arbitrary and unjust?

How is it possible for you to be blind to the implied contradiction in your own teaching? Don't you care that your doctrine makes any sense whatsoever?

Peter is talking to believing Jews! He is talking to member of the nation of Israel who have believed in their Messiah, members of the Kingdom of God, a GROUP that has been appointed by God well in advance! It is the group of people that God has appointed, not the individual members. Anyone who wants to join the group gets to benefit from the blessings that God has prepared in advance for that group to enjoy and those who choose not to join are members of another group that God has something prepared for as well.

Lk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

This passage proves the point I just made! Nations rise and fall at God's command. The nation of Israel did not earn God's choosing, the man Israel did as did his father and grandfather before him. God predestines the fate of nations and other groups (e.g. the Body of Christ) not individual people.

Clete

 

[marke]

Man by nature is dead to God, spiritually dead as a result of his fall/sin in Adam, the representative man for men naturally. Let me explain, physical death means to be dead to physical life, the spirit/soul of a person is separated from the physical body, and so spiritual death is the seperation of the soul/spirit of men from God, which is being dead to God, alienated from God and the spiritual communion and fellowship with God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

This is a simple fact of the scripture Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Children are born sinners alienated from God, but that does not mean God does not love them and want them to be saved. God is not willing that anyone should reject Jesus as Savior because He has no pleasure in sending rebels to hell.

 

[Clete]

Children are born sinners alienated from God,

Children are NOT born sinners! People who commit sin are sinners, not newborns!

Elizabeth's baby wasn't alienated from God...

Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.​

but that does not mean God does not love them and want them to be saved. God is not willing that anyone should reject Jesus as Savior because He has no pleasure in sending rebels to hell.

The only people who are going to Hell are those who deserve to go there.

Ezekiel 18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:​

​

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,​

And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?​

​

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.​

​

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;​

The soul of the father​

As well as the soul of the son is Mine;​

The soul who sins shall die.​

5 But if a man is just​

And does what is lawful and right;....​

​

.....9b He is just;​

He shall surely live!”​

Says the Lord God.​

​

The whole chapter of Ezekiel 18 goes on like that....

​

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

​

The doctrine of original sin is false - period. (That highlighted bit proves the rest of Calvinism false also, by the way!)

Clete

 

[beloved57]

Lets continue the thought that man by nature is dead to God. When Adam sinned, with his posterity in his loins, they sinned with him and became dead Rom 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Dead here though it may include physical death, primarily refers to spiritual death/dead !

Nothing a dead person can do until made alive unto God, not even seek God, the True God that is.

 

[oatmeal]

When I say men naturally i mean the unregenerate man, in the flesh, never born again ? Can this person seek after the True and Living God ? The answer is NO !

Scripture makes that clear, that man naturally doesnt seek after God Rom 3:9-12

⁹ What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
¹¹There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
¹² They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The word seekth here is related to and joined with Faith here Heb 11:1,6

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now the word seek here and the one in Rom 3:11 are the same greek word ekzeteo which means:

I seek out, seek out after, require.

to seek the favor of God, worship him

And believing Faith seeks after the True God. But because of our depravity by nature, we dont seek after God, nor have the ability to !

yes

 

[beloved57]

yes

Yes what ?

 

[marke]

Lets continue the thought that man by nature is dead to God. When Adam sinned, with his posterity in his loins, they sinned with him and became dead Rom 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Dead here though it may include physical death, primarily refers to spiritual death/dead !

Nothing a dead person can do until made alive unto God, not even seek God, the True God that is.

God speaks to sinners and they hear His voice. But sinners who have been enlightened by God and have heard His voice must believe God and receive His word to be saved. Those who hear God's voice and refuse to obey Him will be damned.

Deuteronomy 28:15
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

 

[beloved57]

God speaks to sinners and they hear His voice. But sinners who have been enlightened by God and have heard His voice must believe God and receive His word to be saved. Those who hear God's voice and refuse to obey Him will be damned.

Deuteronomy 28:15
But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

When God speaks to sinners in a Spiritual sense, and they hear His voice, then that means He raised them from the dead resurrected them from the dead, which means they are saved. So Yes a spiritually resurrected sinner can and does hear Gods spiritual voice.

However this thread is about the spiritually dead natural man, he cannot spiritually hear Gods voice because hes dead.

 

[marke]

When God speaks to sinners in a Spiritual sense, and they hear His voice, then that means He raised them from the dead resurrected them from the dead, which means they are saved. So Yes a spiritually resurrected sinner can and does hear Gods spiritual voice.

However this thread is about the spiritually dead natural man, he cannot spiritually hear Gods voice because hes dead.

When a dead man hears the voice of God he is quickened by that voice, but he will not be saved just for hearing God. For a sinner to be saved he must also believe and hearken to the word of God given him by the enlightening of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JudgeRightly]

However this thread is about the spiritually dead natural man, he cannot spiritually hear Gods voice because hes dead.

So if the spiritually dead man cannot hear, then why does God need to speak in parables that he can't understand?

 

[beloved57]

So if the spiritually dead man cannot hear, then why does God need to speak in parables that he can't understand?

God does what He wants with His creatures.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God does what He wants with His creatures.

So God does things that don't make any rational sense at all? Speaking in parables that can't be understood to dead men that cannot hear doesn't make any sense.