Does God know the future?

[godrulz]

oops. I see JCAtheist beat me to it. Great minds think alike (I had not read his post before I wrote mine) :BRAVO:

 

[nancy]

You guys are still confusing the term providence with predestination.

 

[Clete]

No, Clete you are talking about predeterminism not predestination.

pre·des·ti·na·tion
1 : the act of predestinating : the state of being predestinated
2 : the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation

prov·i·dence
1 a often capitalized : divine guidance or care b capitalized : God conceived as the power sustaining and guiding human destiny

Pre`de`ter`mi`na´tion
n. 1.The act of previous determination; a purpose formed beforehand; as, the predetermination of God's will.


These terms are practically interchangable.

If we are "still confusing the terms" it's because you've given us nothing but your say so that there is any significant difference between the two. As far as I can tell predeterminism is a nonreligious philosophical way of communicating the same concept. It is a broader term than predestination but there can be no doubt that predestination is in fact a form of predeterminism.

How am I wrong?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[death2impiety]

You guys are stil confusing the term providence with predestination.

And you have yet to refute logical "confusion" with any coherent counter argument.

Divine Providence:

This term is an integral part of John Calvin's theological framework known as Calvinism. Calvinism emphasisizes the depravity of man and the complete sovereignty of God. God's plan for the world and every soul that he has created is guided by his will, or providence. According to Calvin, the idea that man has a free will and is able to make choices independently of what God has already determined is based [on] our limited understanding of God's perfection and the illusion (created by Satan) that we are able to reject God's plan for us. In this mode of thought, providence is related to predestination.

predestination:

being determined in advance; especially the doctrine (usually associated with Calvin) that God has foreordained every event throughout eternity (including the final salvation of mankind)

There is no confusion...

Had God seen in the first place that man would disgust Him and shun Him, He never would have created us in the first place. By your thought process God believed that His "good" world was one where its inhabitants were sure to cause sin. This in contradicts God's loving nature. Why would He create beings that He knew He'd have to judge and damn to hell for eternity?

 

[godrulz]

Providential control is responsive and not meticulous. Predestination impies a higher degree of certainty/control. They are not interchangeable. A correct definition of the word (little used in Greek) merits careful study, not a preconceived Calvinistic idea.

 

[eccl3_6]

Had God seen in the first place that man would disgust Him and shun Him, He never would have created us in the first place.

If thats the case then on behalf of mankind I'd like to apologise to God empathatically and unreservedly for disgusting Him. I am sooooo sorry I and my fellow man was made imperfect. It was inexcusable...what were we thinking? As for shunning Him....I'm on a website dedicated to Him......or Her. No shunning here!

 

[Johnny]

Let me pose my question again: Can God exist in two time frames at once? Can part of His existence lag behind another part of His existence?

 

[Sir Cast-a-Lot]

Let me pose my question again: Can God exist in two time frames at once? Can part of His existence lag behind another part of His existence?

theres only 1 time frame

 

[eccl3_6]

Surely the point of God is that He's capable of everything and anything. Why then should He be constrained by time. Why does He even have to play by its rules. Isn't this just trying to put parameters on something which by definition is without boundaries?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Surely the point of God is that He's capable of everything and anything. Why then should He be constrained by time. Why does He even have to play by its rules. Isn't this just trying to put parameters on something which by definition is without boundaries?

Time isn't a thing.

In this context time is simply a way of describing rational existence - thinking one thought after another thought, and doing one thing after another thing.

 

[Sir Cast-a-Lot]

Surely the point of God is that He's capable of everything and anything. Why then should He be constrained by time. Why does He even have to play by its rules. Isn't this just trying to put parameters on something which by definition is without boundaries?

is god constrained by his ownself? or does time merely coexist with god like a child. is time linear? or multidimentional? what does god mean when he says "when time began?". these are the things human beings will never know. thats why we must rely on the bible to understand what gods purpose is and how he functions.

 

[Agape4Robin]

And here we go .............. :juggle:

 

[eccl3_6]

Time isn't a thing.

In this context time is simply a way of describing rational existence - thinking one thought after another thought, and doing one thing after another thing.

Not really, this argument falls away under time relativity and dilation. Time is a product of matter just as energy is mass and mass is energy. You cant see it, you cant touch it, but its there and it does exist.

The act of doing one thing followed by another is a product of time relative to an observer, the topic is regarding God's relationship to time. How can you possible perceive anything from His perspective, time or otherwise?

It is not enough to say time is linear. Time is relatively linear. Sit on the edge of a blackhole and see how fast things seem to be happening for the outside world and tell me that times linear.

 

[nancy]

Clete, even your own definition spells it out. Predestination is God's foreknowledge, not his will. I have already said that when God through his foreknowledge sees us reach the pearly gates he will give us those graces needed for entrance to heaven.

Obviously by your own defintion, they are not interchangeable and hence the reason for different terms in the first place.

You guys have built up this whole elaborate theism over a confusion of terms.

 

[eccl3_6]

Why the assumption that if the answer doesn't openly present itself then turst the bible? The bible is just as contested as a source of evidence as anything else....if not more so.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why the assumption that if the answer doesn't openly present itself then turst the bible? The bible is just as contested as a source of evidence as anything else....if not more so.

That is another topic altogether.

If you want to start a different thread questioning the Bible's authority you are free to do so. If you have nothing to add to the topic at hand please kindly stay out of this thread.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Not really, this argument falls away under time relativity and dilation. Time is a product of matter just as energy is mass and mass is energy. You cant see it, you cant touch it, but its there and it does exist.

We can measure time, which can be effected by physics but the concept of time (sequential reality) does not exist in a jar or in a beaker since it isn't a "thing" but instead a description of reality.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Clete, even your own definition spells it out. Predestination is God's foreknowledge, not his will. I have already said that when God through his foreknowledge sees us reach the pearly gates he will give us those graces needed for entrance to heaven.

Obviously by your own defintion, they are not interchangeable and hence the reason for different terms in the first place.

You guys have built up this whole elaborate theism over a confusion of terms.

Right on sister! :thumb:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Right on sister! :thumb:

Robin, you think nancy is making a good point?

Please explain in your own words what nancy is saying that is so clever.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Robin, you think nancy is making a good point?

Please explain in your own words what nancy is saying that is so clever.

Mostly this........"You guys have built up this whole elaborate theism over a confusion of terms. "