Does God know the future?

[Agape4Robin]

Yes, it is.

This is where we disagree. In light of these truths, I believe God's knowledge of all things is perfect!

Do you know how God controls the clouds
and makes his lightning flash?

Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

Godrulz, you have, essentially, placed a limitation on God's understanding, yet Scripture tells us that God is not limited in "understanding."

Look, you disagree. Who cares?! This issue isn't a essential issue, the lost world around us could care less. It's fun to debate it, though.

Well said Freak! I have said essentially the same thing, but it fell on deaf ears.....so to speak.

I think the Open Theists pride themselves on being right and picking out the truth that sounds good to them, or conforms to what they want to be true. They play word games and semantics to conform scripture to their way of thinking and not the other way around, as it should be.

Poly has made me the "Wacked out POTD" because I said every one dies and that how is but a detail. (Context 9/11) She called me sick and twisted, but refused to defend her accusation of me.....I guess I should expect such misdirected barbs.

You are right Freak, when you say it has no real impact on the salvation issue. Just wanted to give credit where it's due......

 

[godrulz]

Yes, it is.

This is where we disagree. In light of these truths, I believe God's knowledge of all things is perfect!

Do you know how God controls the clouds
and makes his lightning flash?

Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

Godrulz, you have, essentially, placed a limitation on God's understanding, yet Scripture tells us that God is not limited in "understanding."

Look, you disagree. Who cares?! This issue isn't a essential issue, the lost world around us could care less. It's fun to debate it, though.

The verse merely affirms that God knows the past and present perfectly. It is not a proof text to extrapolate exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies.

God is infinite in wisdom and understanding. Both views affirm that He is omnicompetent. His understanding allows Him to respond to any contingency without having to know the future exhaustively (ability vs foreknowledge). He knows all the factors without seeing possible/probable events as certain/actual before they come into existence. A denial of exhaustive foreknowledge is not tantamount to limiting God nor His omniscience. The question is how He knows reality, not whether He knows it or not. The future is not real until it moves from the potential future through the actual present into the fixed past.

There are important implications to our views, but it is not worth shedding blood over.

 

[Freak]

The verse merely affirms that God knows the past and present perfectly.

But that's not what the verses (not merely verse) state. No. It tells us that there is no limitation to His understanding. Is God limited in His understanding? No!

It is not a proof text to extrapolate exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies.

Godrulz, when you disagree with someone on TOL you always resort to the, "It is not a proof text to extrapolate...blah blah blah..."

Everyone is tired of the same song & dance! :down:

There are important implications to our views, but it is not worth shedding blood over.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

This verse is one of many that could be quoted to prove that with God there is no limitation to His understanding of the future. This despite what YOU might say or believe.

 

[Freak]

Well said Freak! I have said essentially the same thing, but it fell on deaf ears.....so to speak.

I think the Open Theists pride themselves on being right and picking out the truth that sounds good to them, or conforms to what they want to be true. They play word games and semantics to conform scripture to their way of thinking and not the other way around, as it should be.

Poly has made me the "Wacked out POTD" because I said every one dies and that how is but a detail. (Context 9/11) She called me sick and twisted, but refused to defend her accusation of me.....I guess I should expect such misdirected barbs.

You are right Freak, when you say it has no real impact on the salvation issue. Just wanted to give credit where it's due......

Thanks!! :up:
Even if you ask a child, a child would know that God knows everything. Because that is what is taught in Scripture. A child embraces the thought that God is perfect and is not lacking/nor limited in any way.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Why are you asking
Robin if she believe anything. You can't believe if you have no choice. They are like rocks in the desert. They get hot when its hot cold when its cold. Totally dependent on what goes on around them. They can't get mad or glad because that requires the freedom of choice. They are just there like the proverbial stick in the mud. They are just here but of course they did not choose to be here. I got it! They are a plant from the martians to spy out the world and they are all preprogrammed.

How philosophical of you........ :kookoo:

 

[drbrumley]

Well said Freak! I have said essentially the same thing, but it fell on deaf ears.....so to speak.

I think the Open Theists pride themselves on being right and picking out the truth that sounds good to them, or conforms to what they want to be true. They play word games and semantics to conform scripture to their way of thinking and not the other way around, as it should be.

Poly has made me the "Wacked out POTD" because I said every one dies and that how is but a detail. (Context 9/11) She called me sick and twisted, but refused to defend her accusation of me.....I guess I should expect such misdirected barbs.

You are right Freak, when you say it has no real impact on the salvation issue. Just wanted to give credit where it's due......

Translation: I have no answer to the points made.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Translation: I have no answer to the points made.

I'll speak for myself, thank you. :thumb:

 

[godrulz]

But that's not what the verses (not merely verse) state. No. It tells us that there is no limitation to His understanding. Is God limited in His understanding? No!

Godrulz, when you disagree with someone on TOL you always resort to the, "It is not a proof text to extrapolate...blah blah blah..."

Everyone is tired of the same song & dance! :down:
Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.

This verse is one of many that could be quoted to prove that with God there is no limitation to His understanding of the future. This despite what YOU might say or believe.

An earthly parent may have virtually no limit to their understanding of their children. This does not mean the parent knows every moral and mundane choice they will make for the next 100 years.

God's understanding, wisdom, knowledge has no limit. God's power has no limit. This does not mean He can create a rock too heavy to lift. This is an absurdity or logical contradiction. Likewise, knowing the blank future is not part of unlimited understanding. The knowing of a nothing is absurd. The phrase "understanding has no limit" is not a wooden literalism. It shows God's great wisdom and insight. He searches the hearts. You are moving beyond the text to argue for foreknowledge (may or may not have, but not resolved by a proof text).

This is like those who argue that "nothing is impossible for God" means He can create rocks too heavy to lift, be a toad and God at the same time, be uncreated and created, make black white at the same time, make 2+2=4 and 12 at the same time...after all 'nothing' is impossible for God. Or is it? Omnipotence does not mean He does everything He could do all the time (exercise power), nor does it mean He lies or does logically contradictory, absurd, illogical, 'impossible' things.

 

[Agape4Robin]

An earthly parent may have virtually no limit to their understanding of their children. This does not mean the parent knows every moral and mundane choice they will make for the next 100 years.

God's understanding, wisdom, knowledge has no limit. God's power has no limit. This does not mean He can create a rock too heavy to lift. This is an absurdity or logical contradiction. Likewise, knowing the blank future is not part of unlimited understanding. The knowing of a nothing is absurd. The phrase "understanding has no limit" is not a wooden literalism. It shows God's great wisdom and insight. He searches the hearts. You are moving beyond the text to argue for foreknowledge (may or may not have, but not resolved by a proof text).

This is like those who argue that "nothing is impossible for God" means He can create rocks too heavy to lift, be a toad and God at the same time, be uncreated and created, make black white at the same time, make 2+2=4 and 12 at the same time...after all 'nothing' is impossible for God. Or is it? Omnipotence does not mean He does everything He could do all the time (exercise power), nor does it mean He lies or does logically contradictory, absurd, illogical, 'impossible' things.

Oh brother........ :doh:
:nono:

 

[drbrumley]

I'll speak for myself, thank you. :thumb:

You have spoken for yourself. Your posts demonstrate the translation.

 

[Agape4Robin]

You have spoken for yourself. Your posts demonstrate the translation.

 

[nancy]

Can Clete or Godrulz who both used the term coprorate elect define what the term means for me?

 

[godrulz]

Oh brother........ :doh:
:nono:

Oh, sister. I am open to your refinement of my hasty, off the cuff post. :baby:

 

[godrulz]

Thanks!! :up:
Even if you ask a child, a child would know that God knows everything. Because that is what is taught in Scripture. A child embraces the thought that God is perfect and is not lacking/nor limited in any way.

A child would know the rudimentary, one-sided view presented in Sunday School. Open Theists do agree that God knows everything knowable. To not know a nothing is not a limitation. He is perfect in His knowledge because He knows reality as it is and correctly distinguishes past, present, future (eternal now is incoherent and philosophical, not 'taught in Scripture'). It is no lack to also distinguish possibilities from certainties (the nature of the open, unsettled future that God chose so that we would have genuine freedom vs robotics).

 

[godrulz]

Can Clete or Godrulz who both used the term coprorate elect define what the term means for me?

God purposes to elect a group (corporate) of people that will know and love Him. He chose/elected Israel to be His people (national) vs pagan nations. The Messiah would come forth from Israel. Not everyone who was in national Israel was spiritually elect. Paul, in Romans, refuted their idea that they were saved because they were part of Israel. Each individual still had to have faith in God to be saved. Some in Israel went after false gods. Those who were genuine believers were part of the genuine elect. The Church/Body of Christ is now the people of God. It is made up of individuals who believed and became part of the elect/people of God. They were not arbitrarily chosen before they even existed. The Body of Christ, as a group/corporate entity, was chosen by God, but not the individuals from eternity past. He predestined that all who believe would be part of this Body and then they would be conformed to His image. The plural references for your proof texts allude to the group vs individual nature.

The chosen ones, Israel and the Church, were initially a generic concept. The individuals were added as they were born or born again. God did not say Sue and Joe would be in the Church from eternity past. He did say that everyone who believes would be saved and added to the church. Once they believed, then they were known to be part of the larger, corporate group. Israel and Church were chosen in advance, not Hezekiah, Fred, and Donna. If these individuals believed, then they would share the promises and purposes of the corporate group they now identify with, but could not be named trillions of years ago. If their unique parents had not freely procreated, they would not even exist to be 'elected'.

Individual election/non-election/reprobation is Calvinistic (TULIP), not explictly biblical.

Israel's purposes and election as a nation are not related to heaven-hell salvation of individuals. Individuals are involved, but are not in view when talking about corporate Israel or the Church.

This is off the top of my head. "God's Strategy in Human History" (Forster and Marston...forwarded by Calvinist scholar supreme F.F. Bruce) as well as other works (C. Gordon Olson: Beyond Calvinism/Arminianism) develops this view with Scripture and sound exegesis/word studies. Once you see it, it will clarify some confusing issues. One clue is that the Hebraic view is corporate, while the Hellenistic (Greek) view, our world view, is individualistic.

"Predestination does not concern who should or should not become Christians, but rather their destiny as Christians. The word is only used 4x with reference to the Church...concerned with their future destiny and tasks of the Church (cf. Israel). They are not concerned with how anyone came to be a Christian....Predestination was not the result of some arbitrary fiat."

We are predestined to sonship, a task, future glory, etc. All those who believe become part of the elect and its purposes/promises. If they reject God's will for them, they do not become elect, but share the fate of unbelievers who could have been elect if they did not reject Him.

 

[Clete]

Can Clete or Godrulz who both used the term coprorate elect define what the term means for me?

I don't recall using the term but if I do use the term I am refering to the fact that God chosen groups of people within and through whom to perform a task or to have a special relationship with of one kind or another.

Israel and the Body of Christ are the two most obvious groups.

Israel was God's chosen nation, through whom God intended to not only bring the Messiah but also salvation itself to the whole world. The only qualification you needed to be a member of God's elect group was that you be a member of the nation of Israel. It was not necessary that you love God or that you even be "saved" in order for God to use you as a member of the nation as a priest or even a prophet. Of course your eternal destiny, (i.e. your salvation) hinged on belief (faith) and obedience toward God but His use of you as a member of the nation of Israel did not. Thus it is the nation itself that is the elect of God not individual people (although He elected individuals as well for specific tasks (such as being king for example, but this election also had nothing to do with salvation any more than thier physical birth as an Israelite did).

The Body of Christ is somewhat different. It is similar in that God has predetermined what He intends to do with this group. Specifically, the Body of Christ is destined to be glorified. So membership in this group has everything to do with salvation and so it is not based on birth or nationality but on faith. Anyone expressing faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and in His resurection is immediately made a member of this group and all of the predetermined (i.e. predestined) promises which apply to that group then apply to that individual. The point being, the individual is not predestined for glorification it is the group, the Body of Christ which is predestined the individual is simply along for the ride by the grace of Him to Whom the Body belongs.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Freak]

(may or may not have, but not resolved by a proof text).

Here we go again. When backed in a corner, godrulz pulls out the "proof text" issue. Last time it was this:

"It is not a proof text to extrapolate...blah blah blah..."

Now it's:

"(may or may not have, but not resolved by a proof text...blah blah blah..."

The Scriptures consistently point out that God is perfect in knowledge and understanding. Furthermore, His understanding is not limited! This clearly means that He knows the future--all of it--in His mind. Nothing is left uncovered. A child understands this & knows that their Creator knows all!

Look, I know you have great difficulty coming to terms that God gives free will and God knows all perfectly. Much of God we do not understand (we are finite, He is infinite) but we trust Him and His Word. The secret things belong to the Lord (see Deut. 29:29).

 

[Freak]

Open Theists do agree that God knows everything knowable.

This is the problem I have with open theism.

God does not see things as we do.

In God's eyes--He knows everything (no limitation). There is no knowable or nonknowable--for there is no limitation to Him.

In man's eyes-we know the knowable (limitation) and some (like you) see God as knowing what is merely knowable. This is a finite's man reasoning and it falls short. For God is beyond His creation & He knows all. Nothing would be exempt.

You are attempting to place God in a box by stating "God knows everything knowable."

That is not what is taught in Scripture or the universal Body of believers throughout the centuries.

 

[intro2faith]

Here we go again. When backed in a corner, godrulz pulls out the "proof text" issue. Last time it was this:

"It is not a proof text to extrapolate...blah blah blah..."

Now it's:

"(may or may not have, but not resolved by a proof text...blah blah blah..."

The Scriptures consistently point out that God is perfect in knowledge and understanding. Furthermore, His understanding is not limited! This clearly means that He knows the future--all of it--in His mind. Nothing is left uncovered. A child understands this & knows that their Creator knows all!

Look, I know you have great difficulty coming to terms that God gives free will and God knows all perfectly. Much of God we do not understand (we are finite, He is infinite) but we trust Him and His Word. The secret things belong to the Lord (see Deut. 29:29).

:BRAVO: :first:

 

[godrulz]

This is the problem I have with open theism.

God does not see things as we do.

In God's eyes--He knows everything (no limitation). There is no knowable or nonknowable--for there is no limitation to Him.

In man's eyes-we know the knowable (limitation) and some (like you) see God as knowing what is merely knowable. This is a finite's man reasoning and it falls short. For God is beyond His creation & He knows all. Nothing would be exempt.

You are attempting to place God in a box by stating "God knows everything knowable."

That is not what is taught in Scripture or the universal Body of believers throughout the centuries.

The following is sound reasoning. You simply do not get it. Omniscience= God knows all that is knowable is a reasonable definition for you as well. We just disagree about what is logically knowable. It is not a question of whether God is omniscient or not (He is). Methinks you do not understand. This is why you reject it. If you really understood (vs knee jerk reactions) you would probably change your views (tradition is not the same as biblical all the time).


"As omnipotence is limited by the possible (2+2 is 4, not 12, right?), so omnisicience (vs God) is limited by the knowable...we do not limit omnipotence by denying its power to do impossible or self-contradictory things. Neither do we limit omniscience by denying its power to foreknow unknowable things (future free will contingencies)."

A future free act, previous to its existence, is a nothing; the knowing of a nothing is a bald contradiction.

Saying God is different than us does not change the fact that 2+2 = 4 in all realities (God and ours).

"If an act be free, it must be contingent; If contingent, it may or may not happen, or it may be one of many possibles. And if one of many possibles, it must be uncertain; and if uncertain, it must be unknowable."

God is not illogical. Open your mind, but not so much your brain falls out. This view is defensible, logically and biblically.