Does God know the future?

[intro2faith]

Well that's not what we are saying. God's foreknowledge does detroy freedom because it means that God predestined everything, it detroys freedom because it removes our ability to do or to do otherwise, which is the very definition of what means to have a free will.

How does Gods foreknowledge predestine anything? He didn't force us to make the choice. He just KNOWS the choice.

 

[nancy]

kmoney,

I can be a spectator in a game and even if I watch the whole game, I'm not causing one side or the other to win. I'm just observing the outcome.

It's the same thing if God has foreknowledge.

 

[intro2faith]

kmoney,

I can be a spectator in a game and even if I watch the whole game, I'm not causing one side or the other to win. I'm just observing the outcome.

It's the same thing if God has foreknowledge.

I agree 100% with that.

 

[Clete]

You guys are missing the point.
Let me just simply ask a question that you guys need to respond to, okay?

Does having a free will mean having the ability to do or to do otherwise?

If your answer is "yes" then foreknowledge detroys freedom because people would have no ability to do other than that which is known by God.

If your answer is "no" then you need to offer a definition of free will that makes sense and allows for God's foreknowledge without contradiction.


I don't think anyone is equating foreknowledge with predestination except to say that both have the same effect on one's freedom to choose.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Clete,
This is going to be a very loose parallel, but.....
have you read any Nietzchse? specifically his idea of Eternal Recurrence? In short this is what ER is....we have lived our lives an infinite number of times before this life and an infinite number of times after this life. As far as his stance on free will vs. determinism he is in the middle. He is against the notion of complete free will, but he is also against what he calls "unfree will", which is the opposite of free will.

Anyway, if ER is true than one way you could look at it is that you are programmed to follow a specific path in this lifetime and can do nothing else because you are living a life that has been lived before. therefore you have no free will. Nietzsche, however, doesn't follow this belief. He doesn't take all free will away. The fact that this life is just one link on an infinite chain of lives has no consequence when it comes to you making choices. I know that can be hard to understand and can seem quite contradictory, but I don't believe it is.

Now, for the belief that God exhaustively knows the future....
I brought up Nietzsche's concept of ER for this reason....If God knows the future than it is as if you have lived it before as God forsaw your life. Yes, there is only one way to live your life because if God knows the future and that knowledge is perfect than there is only one path you can take, but I don't think you can take that and jump to not having free will.

Like I said, that parallel is not very great, but I threw it in here.

Kevin

I don't know really how to respond to this. I know almost nothing about Neitzsche except that if memory serves me correctly I think Hitler was a big Neitzche fan. I know that doesn't really prove anything but Hitler is not a guy I would want taking my side. Anyway, I could be wrong about that. Either way, I don't see how it's relevent. I mean people can have any nut job theory they want, how would you ever confirm even any part of such a theory? I don't see how this could ever be related to anything remotely Christian, that much is certain.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Well said :BRAVO: I just meant that God knows what man doesn't. That's all

Okay, just to be perfectly clear. God knows a lot of things that man doesn't but there are some things that neither God nor man knows, right?

 

[intro2faith]

Okay, just to be perfectly clear. God knows a lot of things that man doesn't but there are some things that neither God nor man knows, right?

Well, if God doesn't know them, then they can't be known, which would mean that they are nonexistant.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Well, if God doesn't know them, then they can't be known, which would mean that they are nonexistant.

not true

Look at these verses:
Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God had to go down to see what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah in order to know.

 

[intro2faith]

not true

Look at these verses:
Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God had to go down to see what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah in order to know.

Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?

 

[Clete]

not true

Look at these verses:
Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God had to go down to see what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah in order to know.

Exactly!

God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable.

 

[intro2faith]

Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?

Clete(or anyone else) would you like to take a stab at my question? I'm really interested in what you have to say about it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I am going to have to catch up on this thread later.

I have become busy at work and some family stuff. Sorry!

 

[Clete]

I am going to have to catch up on this thread later.

I have become busy at work and some family stuff. Sorry!

I hope I haven't stolen your thunder here, Knight. I sort of feel like I just jump in and took over. Sorry about that!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I hope I haven't stolen your thunder here, Knight. I sort of feel like I just jump in and took over. Sorry about that!

No!

Actually I am glad your here because we are trying to sell our house and we have had several "showings" yesterday and today and it has consumed my time!

 

[genuineoriginal]

Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?

Look at this verse:
Leviticus 22:Say unto them, Whosoever he be of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I am the LORD.
If the LORD is omnipresent, then where can the people go who are cut off from the presence of the LORD? The LORD has established that His presence is somewhere, whether it is in the garden of Eden in the cool of the evening, on His throne in heaven, talking to Abraham, or meeting with Moses in the tent of meeting. The LORD manifests his presence, he is not everywhere at the same time.

For an interesting look at how God sees things, look at these verses:
Zechariah 3:9For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zechariah 4:For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

The eyes of the LORD are not everywhere at once (omnipresent), nor do they see everything at once (omniscient), but they travel about the earth, seeing what they see.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Clete(or anyone else) would you like to take a stab at my question? I'm really interested in what you have to say about it.

intro2faith, the following was posted here on TOL several years ago, you might find it interesting.

4-15-98 Bob Enyart on Omnipresence: Do we really mean God is everywhere at all times? Is He in Hell and will He forever be in the Lake of Fire? Being where you do not want to be is like being imprisoned, and no one is going to imprison God. I doubt He will be in these places. We warn people not to go to Hell where they would live without God. Says the Lord to the wicked, "I will cast you out of My presence" (Jer. 23:39). If these observations hold, then our non-biblical term "omnipresence" overstates the truth.

4-15-98 Bob Enyart on Omnipotence: Do we really mean that God has all power? God has created authorities, principalities and powers (Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:15; 1 Pet. 3:22; Mat. 24:29; Mark 13:25; Luke 21:26) and thus He has delegated authority and power to beings that He created. When the Bible describes "God, who cannot lie" (Titus 1:2) it touches on the principle of absolute right and wrong. Righteousness is a description of God's character and not an arbitrary designation. (When the Christian scholastics taught that God's morality was arbitrary, they paved the way for the godless Renaissance and the Enlightenment.) God can not make rape praise-worthy and faithfulness wicked. He cannot by decree reverse the absolutes. Good is truly good, because it reflects God's character; and evil is truly evil, because it rejects God's character. If these observations hold, then the typical definition of "omnipotence" supercedes the truth.

4-15-98 Bob Enyart on Omniscience: Do we really mean that God knows everything? Says the Lord to the wicked, "I, even I, will utterly forget you" (Jer. 23:39). An inspired plea to God states, "Do not remember the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions" (Ps. 25:7). "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins" (Isa. 43:25). God wants to put these wicked things out of His mind because it is ugly to remember them: "you have burdened Me with your sins, you have wearied Me with your iniquities" (Isa. 43:24). Must God recall in vivid detail every gross perversion acted out by homos in public restrooms? Who would impose that vulgar duty on God? If these observations hold also, then our non- biblical term "omniscience" overstates the truth. Of that which is knowable, God knows that which He chooses to know and remember.

 

[Clete]

Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?

The classic or traditional meaning of such terms as Omnipresent are generally true but are in fact overstatements which cannot be supported Biblically.

My beleif on these issues, which I beleive to fit the Biblical evidence more precisely is as follows...


Omnipotence - God can do anything that is doable that He wants to do.

Omniscience - God knows what is knowable. (basically a restatement of the above definition of Omnipotence).

Omnipresent - God is, at all times, everywhere and only where He wants to be.

So God cannot know the do the undoable (the logically absurd), know the unknowable (the future in exhaustive detail), or be in a place that does not exist (outside of time).

Does that answer your question?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh and.... intro2faith when you get a chance I would like you to respond to my post #25. :up:

 

[kmoney]

kmoney,

I can be a spectator in a game and even if I watch the whole game, I'm not causing one side or the other to win. I'm just observing the outcome.

It's the same thing if God has foreknowledge.

nancy,

we seem to be on the same side of this question so if you are presenting this as an argument for God knowing the future than you are talking to the wrong person.

Kevin

 

[kmoney]

I don't know really how to respond to this. I know almost nothing about Neitzsche except that if memory serves me correctly I think Hitler was a big Neitzche fan. I know that doesn't really prove anything but Hitler is not a guy I would want taking my side. Anyway, I could be wrong about that. Either way, I don't see how it's relevent. I mean people can have any nut job theory they want, how would you ever confirm even any part of such a theory? I don't see how this could ever be related to anything remotely Christian, that much is certain.

Resting in Him,
Clete

First off, Nietzsche hated being associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Nazis manipulated his writings to make it seem anti-semetic and pro Nazi propaganda. Hitler may have been a fan of Nietzsche, but it was because people misused his writings.

I'm not saying I agree with ER, nor am I saying it is Christian, nor am I saying I could confirm it. Another reason why it isn't a great parallel is that I don't believe Nietzsche even believed in it, but people are split on that.

All I really tried to do is talk about it in a different way. I realize that there are problems with believing God knows the future, but I also see problems with God not knowing the future. To be honest, I don't completely see the consequences of believing God knows the future or he doesn't. Now I don't know you or how you live your life, but I really don't think that we live our lives much differently as far as making choices. I believe that God knows the future, but that really has no practical impact on my life.

Do you feel that you would live differently if you believed God knew the future? Or do you believe that because you are an open theist that your life is so much different because you are free to choose instead of being locked into the path God forsaw?

Kevin