Does God Create Reprobates?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Um, well if there's a loving God behind everything then how about not creating life whereby eternal suffering was a given from the get go regardless? You cannot intellectualize the abject horror of other people's torment no matter what you believe.

Then lay out the logical steps that you think comport with reality around us. What do they look like?

AMR

 

[Arthur Brain]

Then lay out the logical steps. What do they look like?

AMR

A loving God wouldn't create a world whereby the majority of creation would be lost due to set parameters that would render such inevitable.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A loving God wouldn't create a world whereby the majority of creation would be lost due to set parameters that would render such inevitable.

You are being evasive. Please formulate the logical steps behind God's creative act you think accurately describe the present state of affairs around us. If you cannot offer a reasonably logical theodicy all you are doing is ruminating aloud.

BTW, no Calvinist or Reformed believer holds that the majority of creation is ultimately lost. Rather the properly instructed Reformed or Calvinst (or any other believer) should be in alignment with the following:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485652#post4485652

AMR

 

[Bradley D]

"Reprobate" in Greek adokimos means "failing to pass the test." Which everyone does. It is only by the grace of God and Jesus' ultimate sacrifice that I am saved today. All have the sin of Adam "pride" "...you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Gen. 3:5). The secular world is in a sate of confusion believing the good is evil and evil good. Till one becomes desperate and turns all over to God. They will not be of the "few."

"Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done" (Romans 1:28).

 

[Arthur Brain]

You are being evasive. Please formulate the logical steps behind God's creative act you think accurately describe the present state of affairs around us. If you cannot offer a reasonably logical theodicy all you are doing is ruminating aloud.

BTW, no Calvinist or Reformed believer holds that the majority of creation is ultimately lost. Rather the properly instructed Reformed or Calvinst (or any other believer) should be in alignment with the following:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485652#post4485652

AMR

Well, if you'll indulge with me for taking issue I don't consider I was being particularly evasive if at all in fact. As much as you may link to one of your own posts in regards to what others "should think" as a 'reformed believer' then there's a myriad who don't - and just within the umbrella term of Calvinist. Most in my experience don't 'align' with your parameters as set out as surprising as they were. To be fair there's nothing new there as that's the case across the board with any denomination yes?

You'll be a 'heretic' to other Calvinists to some degree so go figure.

On the other hand I can simply state this: There's no logical reason for people to helplessly suffer in some non ending preordained state of torment that's been set up from the outset of creation regardless of 'the elect' or anyone else. Any person with a single ounce of empathy would rail against any doctrine that essentially intellectualizes the cause for another's horrid pain.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

In that case, thanks for stopping by. :wave:

AMR

 

[Arthur Brain]

In that case, thanks for stopping by. :wave:

AMR

Oh, that's it is it? Maybe you should have been a bit more specific about what you meant by 'the state of affairs around us' if I was missing something exactly...

lain:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Please enumerate the steps, 1, 2, 3....n that you view as the logical thought process used by God when creating the universe. The world now exists. So steps that are but fanciful flights of imagination about what God could have done versus what is actually now present are irrelevant. The steps should reflect a connection to the current state of affairs.

As an example, taking an infralapsarian view, see my earlier:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4495576#post4495576

For example, a Molinist would likely proffer something along the lines:

1: God’s natural knowledge of everything that could be
2: God’s middle knowledge of everything that would be
3. God's Divine Decree Here based upon something from 1 and 2 above
4: God’s free knowledge of everything that will happen in the actual world

After all, the OP deals with the decree and takes a view begging the question of what the logical steps taken when creating God took in support of the OP's odd view. If one is going to cavil about something one should be able to think it through and offer up a position for examination. Of course, Robert Pate resists any challenge to dig a wee bit deeper, hence my original response. Given you have an opinion, I am only asking to see it fleshed out in an orderly fashion.

AMR

 

[intojoy]

Try asking me that if you were being tormented and begging for help, cos if you were suffering interminably that's what you'd be crying out for just like anyone else, and therein lies your answer. FTR if I could I'd actually stop the pain.

So your agreeing with my deduction of your feelings.

 

[musterion]

BTW, no Calvinist or Reformed believer holds that the majority of creation is ultimately lost.

Creation generally, or mankind specifically?

 

[musterion]

That's speculation. The scriptures teach that man is born after Adam in Adam's likeness therefore unlike Adam who God spoke into existence we are born dead to God.

Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

 

[Robert Pate]

Some years ago Vernon McGee had a church in downtown Los Angeles called "The Church of the Open Door". My wife attended that church when she was just a young girl. I always thought that was a strange name for a church. But after I started reading the Bible I understood what it meant.

Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will sup with him and he with me" Revelation 3:20.

And then again Jesus said, "I have set before you an open door and no man can shut it" Revelation 3:8.

After reading this I understood why Vernon named his church "The Church of the Open Door".

Salvation is like an open door. We hear the Gospel, We believe the Gospel and we enter in. We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

God said to the Israelites, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 3:19.

To be saved, we must chose life and enter into the open door.

 

[beloved57]

Some years ago Vernon McGee had a church in downtown Los Angeles called "The Church of the Open Door". My wife attended that church when she was just a young girl. I always thought that was a strange name for a church. But after I started reading the Bible I understood what it meant.

Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will sup with him and he with me" Revelation 3:20.

And then again Jesus said, "I have set before you an open door and no man can shut it" Revelation 3:8.

After reading this I understood why Vernon named his church "The Church of the Open Door".

Salvation is like an open door. We hear the Gospel, We believe the Gospel and we enter in. We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

God said to the Israelites, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 3:19.

To be saved, we must chose life and enter into the open door.

False teaching, those Christ lived and died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers! They don't have to do anything, Christ did it all for them!They have perfectly obeyed Gods Law and are Righteous, while they themselves are ungodly sinners!

 

[glorydaz]

Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

Yep. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Some years ago Vernon McGee had a church in downtown Los Angeles called "The Church of the Open Door". My wife attended that church when she was just a young girl. I always thought that was a strange name for a church. But after I started reading the Bible I understood what it meant.

Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and will sup with him and he with me" Revelation 3:20.

And then again Jesus said, "I have set before you an open door and no man can shut it" Revelation 3:8.

After reading this I understood why Vernon named his church "The Church of the Open Door".

Salvation is like an open door. We hear the Gospel, We believe the Gospel and we enter in. We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

God said to the Israelites, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both you and your seed may live" Deuteronomy 3:19.

To be saved, we must chose life and enter into the open door.

It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Did Lazarus co-operate with Christ? did he "decide of his own freewill" to be raised from the dead?...choose?....did he have faith?

Christ COMMANDED him to come forth


Who does He think He is? doesn't He know He must respect Lazarus free will? after all Lazarus is not a robot.

When the gospel comes to us God COMMANDS us to repent [no matter what the preacher is saying....God commands]

He commands the light of the glorious gospel to shine in our hearts, He commands us to believe.

And He doesn't even say "please"

 

[Tambora]

It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.

Yep.
They live as though they have a debt to pay, when Christ already paid the debt.

 

[jamie]

We enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

Yes, there remains a Sabbath for God's people.

There remains therefore a rest (sabbatismos) for the people of God. (Hebrews 4:9 NKJV)​

 

[OCTOBER23]

ROBERT PATE' said,

Does God Create Reprobates?
-------------------------------------
NOT APPROVED WHICH MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE APPROVED

BEFORE YOU MAY ENTER GOD'S KINGDOM.

-WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME YOURSELF BEFORE YOU QUALIFY TO ENTER.-


- to reject, refuse
1) not standing the test, not approved
1a) properly used of metals and coins
2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought
2a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate

Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
---------------------------------

 

[steko]

Then it's astounding that a God who isn't retarded, insane or lying would still expect faith from those He knows are so literally "dead in sin" that they cannot possibly believe what He wants them to believe unless He first enables them to believe it...yet elected many of them to not be able to believe Him anyway.

We do not have the same god.

Yep. :thumb:

It also fits the idea of the open prison door. Man is locked in a prison of sin....sentenced to death. Christ opened the door by His death on the cross. Some still sit in a prison cell with an open door, not believing they are free.

Yep.
They live as though they have a debt to pay, when Christ already paid the debt.

Yep!