Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Regardless of what you've written, if it hasn't got a verse in it that shows that I have to believe in the trinity to be saved then I don't have to, and you and others have no right to condemn me or anyone else for not believing in it!

John 1-1 states: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I don't believe that one NEEDS to have a clear understanding of the Trinity to become part of the Body of Christ, however, I personally believe that there are three different entities involved. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. John 1-1 speaks of the WORD, which is Christ. It states that Christ IS God. It also states that Christ (The Word) was WITH God. That speaks of "God the Father."

John 16:7 states: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." This speaks of God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, by showing the differences between the three "entities" (The Trinity) we can accept that there are three. We cannot point to ONE particular Scripture verse that states we MUST believe in the Trinity. Everyone has their own analogies to represent the Trinity. However, as we look at different verses we can see that there are three distinct entities, yet, there is ONLY one God divided into three different beings, but, they still remain ONE. We must accept this, in faith. No, one analogy can possibly represent the obvious. John 1:14 states: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

As we recall John 1:1 Stated: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Therefore, we know that the WORD is Christ and He was with God the Father and He (Christ) was God. So, when we place it all together: God the Son became flesh, while, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit remained in Heaven. In conclusion, Christ IS part of the Diety. He is God as is The Father and The Holy Spirit. Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane prayed to God the Father. He wasn't praying to Himself. Right before Christ was to be crucified, He told His Disciples that He would send God The Holy Spirit.

The Bible shows us there are THREE different entities, however, states, there is ONLY one God. To my knowledge, there is no verse of Scripture that states that we MUST have a full understanding of the Trinity to become a member of the Body of Christ, however, we must accept that Christ was/is part of the Godhead.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

And your trinitarian beliefs are not of God! They were founded with the Nicene creed around 300 after Jesus came. When a council under Constantine came together to decide who Jesus was. Firstly came up with a duality and didn't include the holy spirit, and then a trinity, made up by man.

And it gets worse, added to that comes the once saved always saved doctrine, you're going to heaven regardless what you do. God then comes in flesh as has himself crucified as a sacrifice to save those who are elect before they were born. And so because of that, they are ok sinning and they don't have to obey God or Christ because they are elect and going to heaven regardless! Only Satan teaches that we can carry on sinning and that we don't have to obey God and Christ and that will still go to heaven.

In other words, carry on sinning, don't worry, you shall not surely die!

Yes we will, we will be cast out and we will be twice dead, carry on and we will be plucked up at the roots.

We all sin, but God wants a clean heart within us, and if the spirit of Christ is within our hearts then we will be striving to turn from sin. And the holy spirit will be guiding us everyday to follow the truth, God has given us a conscience and we are you obey him and we have Jesus as an example to follow.

We all sin, but we should be striving turn from sin and have our hearts cleansed by the blood of Christ within. Washed by the word and cleansed inside and out, so Christ can be seen in us through us. And when we know we've sinned we are to go to God and repent.

You will know Gods true people by their fruits and they will be living it out and they will be judged by they're works, they will be those who do the will of the father and worship him in spirit and in truth. Not those who only believe in the trinity. And Christ through them will judge the world by the word of God!

Show me in the Bible where it says that anyone has to believe in the trinity to saved or belong to God?

Matthew 12

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Those who do the will of God the father belong to Christ. Not only those who believe in the trinity!

As long as a member of the Body of Christ (A true Believer) lives in their body of flesh, they will continue to sin. The True Believer is POSITIONED into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit after they have heard the Grace Gospel and placed their faith in Christ as their Savior. They are also, sealed, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and receive the "Righteousness of Christ" and are guaranteed eternal life. Once they are sealed, etc, they cannot lose their position in the Body of Christ. Ephesians 2:6 states: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

Our flesh is weak and will continue to commit sin (Not as a lifestyle) however, on occasion. If one is living a LIFESTYLE of sin (such as homosexuality or adultery) then, one must ponder the question whether they are TRULY a member of the Body of Christ? 2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

 

[Crucible]

The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world is also revealed in scripture and you don't believe that, 1 John 2:2.

Context, buddy, context.

Without such, one would have to concede that everybody on Earth are going to Paradise.

So
Stop repeating that time and time again- it's been acknowledged and debunked.

 

[Robert Pate]

Context, buddy, context.

Without such, one would have to concede that everybody on Earth are going to Paradise.

So
Stop repeating that time and time again- it's been acknowledged and debunked.

You have 0 understanding of the Gospel.

In the Gospel Jesus defeats sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and in doing so reconciles the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20. He is before all things and by him all things consist, Colossians 1:17.

No one has been predestinated except Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4. He is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, so that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[JAGG]

Yes, some consider him to be in that category, but see this.

AMR, interesting reading, thanks again.

Some other noteworthy amills:
Augustine
Origen
Eusebius
Tyconius
Louis Berkhof
Anthony Hoekema
Vern Poythress
Geerhardus Vos
Greg Beale
J. I. Packer
Oswald T. Allis
Robert B. Strimple
Martin Luther
John Calvin
A.W. Pink
Tim Conway
David White
Sam Storms
Dennis E. Johnson
William Hendriksen
Simon Kistemaker
David J. Engelsma
Kim Riddlebarger

AMR, it must be difficult to pin a label on some of them because there seems to be some disagreement about who is who, or better who is what? For example, Kenneth L. Gentry lists the great Augustine as a Postmillennialist, also Origen, Athanasius, and Eusebius. Of course, these 4 go way back there and it may be that their writings were not clear enough to prevent both tribes (Amills and Postmills) from claiming them as their own.

The way Gentry introduces these 4 is less that compelling, he says: "In the ancient church a nascent postmillennial hope exists in Augustine, Origen, Eusebius, and Athanasius."

Then Gentry list O.T. Allis as a Postmillennialist. I think both tribes claim O.T.Allis as their own.

Source: Kenneth L. Gentry, He Shall Have Dominion, page 106-107

The good news is that none of them are Premillennialists , which in my view is an outrageous interpretation of the New Testament, and the epitome of pessimism and defeatism. I love the Premills as my brothers and sisters in the Lord, but I don't love their eschatological pessimism and defeatism --- the Lord Jesus wins, he does not lose the battle between evil and good. He must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet, is another way of Him saying He wins the war raging here on the time line between evil and Good.

 

[JAGG]

Calvin literally called Millennialism too childish to even deserve a rebuttal :chuckle:

Yah. Calvin understood the "1000 years" figuratively. That's a great Calvin quote, I'm going to hang on to that one.

I think that from the Reformist perspective, the world was rather small in their time. A part of their enthusiasm was due to the notion that the world was expanding and that the Reformation would convict more people than the Catholic Church, who was virtually selling salvation during that time.

But I don't believe the consensus was that so much more would be saved then what is implied in the scriptures- rather, it was a blow to the Roman Church.

I think you're probably right about that. I doubt they gave much thought to Postmillennialism as it exist today in the writings of such scholars as Boettner, Gentry, Mathison, Warfield, Hodge, etc.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Context, buddy, context.

Without such, one would have to concede that everybody on Earth are going to Paradise.

So
Stop repeating that time and time again- it's been acknowledged and debunked.

Robert seems to struggle with proper interpretation of Scripture.

AMR

 

[TulipBee]

Regardless of what you've written, if it hasn't got a verse in it that shows that I have to believe in the trinity to be saved then I don't have to, and you and others have no right to condemn me or anyone else for not believing in it!

Verse is in plain view and it said you will die for not believing Jesus is God. Go look for it. You'll be very very very glad you got answered. Move on!

 

[beloved57]

The fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world is also revealed in scripture and you don't believe that, 1 John 2:2.

Again, you quote scripture, and then deny that Christ's death saved sinners He died for, so making Christ's death of no effect !

 

[beloved57]

You have 0 understanding of the Gospel.

In the Gospel Jesus defeats sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and in doing so reconciles the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20. He is before all things and by him all things consist, Colossians 1:17.

No one has been predestinated except Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4. He is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9, so that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Lies, and you teach that sinners Christ died to save still end up lost in their sins, so denying Christ !

 

[Robert Pate]

Lies, and you teach that sinners Christ died to save still end up lost in their sins, so denying Christ !

Only those sinners like yourself that don't have faith and believe they have to be predestinated.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You've been here much longer than I but in my experience, you're not to be faulted for that. People like him hide their true beliefs as long as possible just to keep attention going. They know if they show their hand, will be written off immediately. So they pretend to be in earnest and we take them as they present themselves, assuming of them honesty and transparency where nothing but an agenda exists. And we get burned by it again and again.

You and I will never ever come to an agreement on the issues related to Calvinism. But at least we've let each other know exactly where we stand, as MEN are expected to do. Not so with many (most?) here, like Pops. I put him on ignore pretty quickly, as soon as he started acting weaselly and evasive. That's always a sure sign that has yet to fail.

So IMO, FWIW, you have no fault here except for giving the newb benefit of doubt, which my spitball calculations say 'pays off' maybe 25% of the time on TOL.

Wow. Baseless assertions and accusations.

I've never been anything but genuine here and have weaseled out of no thing in my life.

My agenda...is to bring the faithful of GOD together, to edify my brothers and sisters in Christ, but it seems that scripture is true and many have fallen away. By the grace and will of GOD, through the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ that is the way toward GOD, may we all turn from our vanity and pride and follow that narrow path.

Peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Rejection of the Trinity has no bearing on personal salvation, but it does beset a church- it closes the communion to others, and therefore limits the the Spirit.

What?

That's pretty nonsensical there friend.

Could you try again?

Peace

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[musterion]

Lies, and you teach that sinners Christ died to save still end up lost in their sins, so denying Christ !

Invalid comment!

 

[musterion]

Aren't you one of those false teachers that teaches sinners Christ died for are going to perish in their sins anyways?

False post!

 

[musterion]

Wow. Baseless assertions and accusations.

I've never been anything but genuine here and have weaseled out of no thing in my life.

My agenda...is to bring the faithful of GOD together, to edify my brothers and sisters in Christ, but it seems that scripture is true and many have fallen away. By the grace and will of GOD, through the teachings, example, and self sacrifice of the Christ that is the way toward GOD, may we all turn from our vanity and pride and follow that narrow path.

Peace

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Baseless assertions and accusations.

 

[patrick jane]

Again, you quote scripture, and then deny that Christ's death saved sinners He died for, so making Christ's death of no effect !

Again, you quote scripture, and then deny that Christ's death saved sinners He died for, so making Christ's death of no effect !

 

[popsthebuilder]

Crucible



I don't agree. Now first of all, Christ death alone saved them He died for ! However evidence of salvation will be to the acknowledgement of God's truth. So to deny the Trinity which is revealed in scripture, maybe not by the exact word, even though the word Godhead indicates it sufficiently Acts 17:29

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Also see Rom 1:20

It's rebellion against the Truth. So in that state there's no evidence of salvation in my opinion.

Actually; the two verses you took out of context speak against the Trinity.

Not that I expect any here to understand it, or at least openly admit it.

Misdirection stands in stark contrast to the truth.

Peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Thank you for the warm consideration, brother. At least the matter has now led to PtB outing himself and no longer lying in wait for the unsuspecting.

AMR

Outed myself as what? Not of the masses that go through the wide gate?

Not the prideful who claims the anointed of GOD is too the utter equivalent to the GOD who begot Him?

Not one that speaks only but who strives to live by what they know to be true... Faith?

The misdirection, deception, arrogance, and pandering towards others it sad.

I guess it's still me who poisons the well while you promote and thank utter deceit.

Shame on you. Oh wait, never mind; your conscience has been seared shut as if a branding iron was placed to your eye.

I should hold contempt towards you naturally, but all I feel is sorrow.

I hope by the will of GOD that a light will begin to shine in you so you might be able to see your own error. I will not speak of it anymore as I too am in error.
The difference is that I am aware of my error and will, in GOD's time, by way of the Christ turn from that error,


Peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Baseless assertions and accusations.

I do not wish to argue for the sake of contention.

If you have a valid statement then I will speak about it, but I'm not going to fight with you just because you want.

What does scripture say about contention?

How does it say we are to treat our enemies?

I wonder if you've caught on...

Peace

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