Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[beloved57]

And WHERE in scripture does it say that God exercised his "fierce wrath" against Christ? Every time I've heard someone parrot those words I've asked them to show me. Every time they've refused, gone silent, or changed the subject. It's not there.

If it is, then show me. Otherwise, stop saying it.

The point is that Jesus has been punished for their sins. So for them to go to hell for their sins again is unjust.

 

[beloved57]

Yes I'd like to see where it says that God exercised his wrath on Christ too, because I've never seen it in the Bible either! If we keep wilfully sinning, we pay for it!

Christ died for their sins already.

 

[marhig]

You failed to show me the scripture.

I think this makes it quite clear

Hebrews 6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

It says here that they were once enlightened, to be enlightened you have belong to God and then it says, once we have tasted of the heavenly gift and the good word of God and been partakers of the Holy Ghost and then fall away again, that we crucify Christ afresh, and not only crucify him but put him to an open shame. And if we bare thorns and briers then we're rejected and our ends will be burned.

If we once knowing God, we turn away and deny him by living by the lusts of our flesh and keep wilfully sinning, then we will be rejected. That's clear right through the Bible.

 

[marhig]

Christ died for their sins already.

If you think you can carry on wilfully sinning and you're going to heaven regardless, then you're seriously mistaken, Jesus taught that we are to turn from sin and deny ourselves.

By the way, you still haven't shown the scripture where it says that God exercised his fierce wrath on Christ, that's not the truth!

 

[Robert Pate]

I think this makes it quite clear

Hebrews 6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned

It says here that they were once enlightened, to be enlightened you have belong to God and then it says, once we have tasted of the heavenly gift and the good word of God and been partakers of the Holy Ghost and then fall away again, that we crucify Christ afresh, and not only crucify him but put him to an open shame. And if we bare thorns and briers then we're rejected and our ends will be burned.

If we once knowing God, we turn away and deny him by living by the lusts of our flesh and keep wilfully sinning, then we will be rejected. That's clear right through the Bible.

You have misinterpreted the scripture. It says right at the beginning of verse 4 that it is IMPOSSIBLE. That means that it can never happen.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You have misinterpreted the scripture. It says right at the beginning of verse 4 that it is IMPOSSIBLE. That means that it can never happen.

It says it's impossible to renew them again after a second falling away.

Peace

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[Robert Pate]

It says it's impossible to renew them again after a second falling away.

Peace

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It is impossible for one that has been saved and has received the Holy Spirit to lose their salvation. That is what the scripture is saying. Its impossible. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, always sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It is impossible for one that has been saved and has received the Holy Spirit to lose their salvation. That is what the scripture is saying. Its impossible. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, always sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I'm sorry, but plain reading of the verses you quoted does not support osas.

The very elect cannot be turned from the narrow path, but that isn't to say that all are elect or that all who confess Jesus's name will be saved.



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[God's Truth]

If you really want to be blessed, renounce your obedience doctrine and trust in Christ alone for your salvation.

I trust in everything that Jesus says.

It is never ever wrong to obey Jesus. His words are life. How do you get that those words Jesus speaks will be life for you if you don't do what he says?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yet they carry enough weight for you to post denials that they carry any weight with you. If you're going to waste text, you might as well respond to the points raised. Adam was younger than the babes you say God would never judge. Yet God was able to give Adam speech, intellect, and understanding on the very day he was born. Do you really short-change God's ability to grant necessary understanding to people who have died, just because some may have died younger than others?

Old GM isn't obligated to post anything to you unless I have a desire to. I also have no obligation to answer your questions. If you don't like it, place me on Ignore. Understand? I hope so?

 

[God's Truth]

You can TRY to be obedient, however, obedience and doing good works don't save you nor keep you saved. You are either saved or you're not. All the obedience and good works are useless unless you're in the Body of Christ and have the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says his words are life. Tell me how those words are life if you do not do what he says.

Try it, what do you got to lose? Just try it.

 

[God's Truth]

GT is a she.

God says it does not matter to those who are in Him.

 

[God's Truth]

You're incorrigible.

Why do you say that to me? What have I said that I cannot prove prove with scripture?

 

[God's Truth]

Leaving your usual anti-Calvinist canards aside, you have read it wrongly. Then again, you read much of Scripture in the same wayward manner. :AMR:

As in Matthew 21:34 (the same wording) the “slaves” metaphorically are the OT and NT prophets or any proper heralder of the Good News, this time (Matthew 22) summoning those invited (the Jewish people) to the wedding banquet. As in the previous parable (Matthew 21:34-36), the king sends two groups of slaves to give the invitations. This was common in the ancient world, since the elaborate preparations required meant that no definite date could be given at first. The first royal invitation informed them of the coming event (presupposed here), and the second tells them the exact date (the two of vv. 3-4). So they have already agreed to come in response to the summons by the King.

AMR

It doesn't matter what you call it for it is to everyone.

 

[God's Truth]

[MENTION=696]theophilus[/MENTION]


He was part of the group found at the city exit points. Recall that the slaves sent out were instructed to gather anyone they could find, an idiom for "any person whosover". The mention of “whoever you find” (“any person whosoever”) is a natural reference to the mission beyond Israel, preparing the way from the restriction of the mission in Matthew 10:5-6; 15:24 to the “lost sheep of Israel” to the extension of the mission to all the world in Matthew 28:1 In other words, this portrays the mission to all the nations that begins with Jesus’ resurrection command. It does not begin after the destruction of Jerusalem, and to read chronology into “then” (Matthew 22:8) and see a contradiction with Matthew 28:19 are unnecessary. This is a parable detailing the guilt of the people, God’s judgment on them, and the worldwide mission, not a map of the timelines involved.

The exit points of the streets probably refers not to the “street corners” or “crossings” but to the point where a street cuts through the city boundary and goes out into the open country.This makes sense in this parable, because the city has been burned to the ground, and the emissaries will find people only out on the country roads where the town ends. It would be no wonder that there would be persons there amidst the destruction all around more than happy to come to a banquet for their own selfish reasons.

AMR

Theophilus' question destroyed your theory, as you try to make the scriptures fit Calvinism.

 

[God's Truth]

Been there myself a few times, and not saying that she is. Who cares anyway?

It is given to mere children...but he denies I am even a child of God.

Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

[God's Truth]

AMR wrote "[FONT="]The ones who were invited to the king’s feast were not willing to come. That they were unable to will otherwise in no way removes from them their duty to come."

Considering he believes that God was the one doing the commanding, and it was God that chose not to give them the ability to will to obey, then yes, it does remove their duty. Unless you think God is a type of sick fellow that would cut the wings off of a bird and then command it to fly under pain of never ending torture if it fails.


[/FONT]

Now that is what I am trying to explain too.

AMR is confusing the scripture by trying to make Calvinism fit it.

 

[theophilus]

Theophilus' question destroyed your theory, as you try to make the scriptures fit Calvinism.

Really my question had nothing to do with Calvinism and more to do with the parable itself.

Matt. 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 Then he *said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

My question had to do with the portion of the text that is bolded above.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber."

This guy would be thrown out, too.

NOTHING to do with Calvinism.

 

[God's Truth]

You will find in Scripture that the command always precedes any self-inflicted wing-clipping.

Are you saying, as a Calvinist that, God commands first then takes away the ability? That goes against what Calvinists teach.

In fact, God hardening Pharaoh is proof that we are not all born totally depraved, depravity according to Calvinism.

What you say here is frankly quite creepy. You say all that do believe are just cut off for no reason.

 

[God's Truth]

Really my question had nothing to do with Calvinism and more to do with the parable itself.

Matt. 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 Then he *said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

My question had to do with the portion of the text that is bolded above.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber."

This guy would be thrown out, too.

NOTHING to do with Calvinism.

AMR is a Calvinist and what you said causes a Calvinist to have to manipulate the scripture. It is not so much what you were trying to do...it is what the scriptures do.

The scripture and the whole parable disproves Calvinism.