musterion
Well-known member
Good job, Jerry.
Does a Jew need to prove that he is a Jew? Answer: No.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Good job, Jerry.
musterion
Well-known member
Did God tell anyone to pray to the cherubim figures?
It is Revi'i, the Third Month the Second Day, Yom (Day), Omer 46.
There are two options. Statues are idols or statues are not idols. I say that statues are idols. There are no exceptions. Read the commandment about idols.
:rotfl:
Good comeback.
And no, Jerry does not hold the standard Acts 9 view on 2 Corinthians 3. He changes the words so that it does not refer to "the new testament."
And I take it you do not hold the view that Ephesians 2 is describing both the Israel of God (Believing Remnant of Israel) and The Body of Christ (formerly lost Jews and Gentiles in the Body, this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting aside of their Covenants of Promise).
The Israel of God the Gentiles were not a part of...
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
The Body of Christ, comprised of formerly lost Jews and Gentiles, this side of Israel's fall, and all that is described in verse 12 being temporarily delayed...
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Note "and to them that WERE nigh."
Them that WERE nigh being Unbelieving Israel...
Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Said formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting aside are now Body members and as a result are fellow citizens with the saints (the Israel of God)...within God's Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery...
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
For though Paul is addressing Gentiles, he has already included himself and his fellow, formerly lost Jews, this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting aside, in that...
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So, you have Body members being mentioned at times (formerly lost Jews and Gentiles this side of Israel's fall), and the Israel of God being mentioned (Believing Remnant Of Israel) at other times, in all that.
Paul also mentions both in passages like the following...
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
And so on...
Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
glassjester
Well-known member
Nope. Are you saying it's ok to have religious statues as long as you don't pray to them?
glassjester
Well-known member
But does Scripture agree with you? Or is this your own personal interpretation?
You are trying to justify sin.
glassjester
Well-known member
No, sir. I am trying to understand why you believe that all statues are idols, when God, Himself, commanded the construction of statues.
That is where you are incorrect then, which is how I understood that there is or rather was something wrong with your thinking? I realize that you are trying to explain yourself, but God never wanted anyone to make a statue.
glassjester
Well-known member
Perhaps you can explain the statues of the cherubim, then?
musterion
Well-known member
Your question is fatally flawed.
Word of the day:
CONTEXT.
Learn it.
God commanded Israel -- alone -- to have those figures. They were not to bow down to, pray to, or otherwise worship them. That is the context you're trying to rob to make a point in favor of papist iconophilia.
Christians have NO such example, instructions or commands from Christ nor any apostle, that even HINTS at such as what God told Israel to do when they had a specific place of worship to Him. Israel, and only for a specific time, had such, and you are not Israel.
In fact, Israel had those figures ONLY in the immediate place of God's presence.
The saved today (of which you are not one) ARE the place of God's presence. THEY are the temples of God. No place for images or icons.
glassjester
Well-known member
Are you of the same opinion as Jacob, then, that all statues are idols?
glassjester
Well-known member
Did they condemn statues?
One example of others that could just as easily be cited...
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
You go right on ahead and believe what you need to.
As the above also makes crystal clear - one's own ideas on an issue like this are also...an idol.
Rom. 5: 6-8.
musterion
Well-known member
The following facts have been pointed out here more than once in the past.
Historically, there are primarily two types of Idol.
One is a physical object that is believed to be indwelt by whatever it is being worshipped. In this case, to worship the thing is to worship whatever the thing represents. There is no difference between the two.
The second type, the Catholic type today, is bowing down before something that is only a representation of someone else, either Christ or dead saints, using it as a point of contact with whoever the prayer actually addresses.
Both are idolatry.
glassjester
Well-known member
Not necessarily a "point of contact," more of a visual reminder or representation. Similar to a photograph. Do you keep photographs of people that you love?
It is Shishi, the Third Month the Fourth Day, until sundown or Shabbat, Omer 48.
You did not read my post. There are no statues of cherubim. You are mistaken. You may also benefit from a course in Hebrew, for cherubim or cheruvim.
glassjester
Well-known member
What does this mean, then?
1 Kings 6:23-24 - For the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim out of olive wood, each ten cubits high. One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip.
