I always assume I could be wrong.
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter beloved57
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Not if the context directly states that God is talking about the two nations that will come from them and not the boys themselves.
That's what the passages EXPLICITLY says, Marke! Why are you more loyal to your doctrine than the text of scripture?
Genesis 25:23 The Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.”
Also, as I said before, prophecy is not prewritten history anyway and so your statement is based on a false premise in any case. There are several clear and unambiguous prophecies in the bible that flatly did not come to pass.
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But not about Romans 9:11-13, apparently.
Why can't you be wrong about that? Why does the passage have to be referring SPECIFICALLY to the two persons, Jacob and Esau, and not the two nations, like how Genesis 25:23 specifically says?
Why can't "Jacob" and "Esau" be synecdoches for their respective nations, Israel and Edom?
beloved57
Well-known member
1 Pet 2:4-10 shows us that Both Christ and believers are the Chosen of God
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Verse 4 is speaking of Christ being Chosen of God and Vs 9 is speaking of believers who were chosen in Him, they were His seed, or generation
Now notice in Vs 9 they are called a chosen generation. That word generation means:
kindred
They are Christs offspring, seed or generation, Chosen in Him Eph 1:4
Yes Jesus had a offspring, seed, generation in Him Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
This referring to Christ having a seed, its the hebrew word zeraʿ:
And this is His generation Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation
Now this chosen seed or generation is what Peter refers to in 1 Pet 2:9, and they were Chosen in Christ who is Gods Chosen 1 Pet 2:4 God chose them together before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Verse 4 is speaking of Christ being Chosen of God and Vs 9 is speaking of believers who were chosen in Him, they were His seed, or generation
Now notice in Vs 9 they are called a chosen generation. That word generation means:
kindred
- offspring
- family
They are Christs offspring, seed or generation, Chosen in Him Eph 1:4
Yes Jesus had a offspring, seed, generation in Him Isa 53:10
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
This referring to Christ having a seed, its the hebrew word zeraʿ:
- offspring, descendants, posterity, children
And this is His generation Ps 22:30
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation
Now this chosen seed or generation is what Peter refers to in 1 Pet 2:9, and they were Chosen in Christ who is Gods Chosen 1 Pet 2:4 God chose them together before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
This passage, which is incredibly lengthy in comparison to what b57 usually quotes, is still ripped from its context!
Well, actually, that isn't quite accurate. The passage itself gives the context, its just that b57 ignores that context.
Peter is talking about Israel, which is made undeniably clear in verse 9. Here it is in modern English...
I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Also, Peter himself addressed his letter to believing Jews...I Peter1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion...
Peter is talking to and about believing members of the nation of Israel. Once again, God predestines groups, not particular individuals.
Ephesians was not written to the same audience as I Peter. Paul was not the apostle to the Jews but to the Gentiles and Peter agreed with Paul that he (Peter) would stay in Jerusalem and minister to the Circumcision (i.e. Israel) while Paul went to the Gentiles. (Galatians 2:7-9).
Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles.)
9 And when James, Cephas (Peter), and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
The circumcision and the uncircumcision are two separate groups! The "heathen" and the "circumcision" are two different groups! Gentiles and Jews are both groups but they are not the same group! IMAGINE THAT!!!
Thus, B57's conflation of the two groups is yet another example of how most Christians, but especially Calvinists and most especially the Calvinist we know as B57 is either completely ignorant of, or intentionally ignores the context of the passages he cites as evidence for his twisted doctrine to the point the practically every passage he cites, when viewed within its actual context, argues against his doctrine rather than in favor of it.
Clete
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beloved57
Well-known member
Do you understand my argument ?
Better than you do! I've been doing this for thirty years. You aren't ever going to say a word that I have heard a thousand times.
beloved57
Well-known member
The Fruit of Unconditional Election,
One of the Blessed Fruits of Gods Election of His People is Sanctification of the Spirit,
1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Cp What the Apostle Paul stated 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Those who were Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 its a sure thing that one day they will undergo the Sanctifying work of the Spirit.
One of the Blessed Fruits of Gods Election of His People is Sanctification of the Spirit,
1 Pet 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Cp What the Apostle Paul stated 2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Those who were Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 its a sure thing that one day they will undergo the Sanctifying work of the Spirit.
God knew before they were born those who would call on Him for salvation and He chose them in Christ for that reason.
beloved57
Well-known member
More on the fruit of unconditional election,
Sanctification of the Spirit is equivalent to New Birth of the Spirit, then Faith follows or its equivalent belief of the Truth, which presupposes a effectual Divine Call, and eventually Glorification.
2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ
Sanctification of the Spirit is equivalent to New Birth of the Spirit, then Faith follows or its equivalent belief of the Truth, which presupposes a effectual Divine Call, and eventually Glorification.
2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ
Before they were born, yes, but not before they existed.
You'll end up giving away the whole farm to the Calvinist here if you aren't careful.
What b57 is trying to teach here is that God is arbitrary.
Go ahead, ask him! He won't deny it.
Go ahead, ask him! He won't deny it.
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
People who claim the Bible teaches irresistible grace and unconditional election have been deluded to think that way in spite of proper interpretations of the Scripture.
Derf
Well-known member
This sounds different from what I've read from you previously, Clete. God knows before birth who will respond to the gospel?
God knows a very great deal about people the moment they become people in the womb. While there may be an exception here and there, whether some particular person is going to accept Christ as their savior is surely unknowable in most, if not all, cases.
When the bible speaks about people being predestined, it is always in terms of groups. It is Christ's fate who was predestined and He is the One who did the predestining. If you choose to believe and thereby are placed in Christ then His destiny becomes yours. Thus we, as members of the Body of Christ, were predestined IN HIM. Just as we died IN HIM, we also live IN HIM. (And we'll be married to Israel, in Him, as well, by the way.)
My point, had to do with the fact that God knows nothing at all of a person before they exist.
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Derf
Well-known member
Well said, although I think he knows some things about some before they exist. For instance, he knew Isaac would be male.
Interesting point. All that would be required there is for God to make sure that Abraham's Y chromosome made the cut when the action was happening in Sarah's womb. If you extend that same sort of control out to the rest of the genetic material, then perhaps there's all sorts of things that God can know before a person exists. Things like physical attributes and personality type and who knows what else. God would only need to know what genetic material was available to work with.
I have no problem with any of that sort of thing. It's when people start attributing magical (i.e. rationally impossible) attributes to God that it's problematic and, since we're on a thread here with a rabid Calvinist who couldn't care less about whether his doctrine makes actual sense, it's important that we not over state our case, lest we hand the enemy free weapons to use to advance his heresy against the truth.
Derf
Well-known member
It helps us sort out why God knows the things he knows. He can see DNA that is already determined for a particular human in the womb and understands the code he created to know what that person will become physically. And if he decides to intervene in some area, he knows the things he will cause. It works the same with world events, it seems, those things he prophesies may be a function of human psychology or something he determines or a combination.
Agreed.
Many of the biblical prophecies concerned whole groups of people which is very doable and with the level of precision that God knows the hearts of the people in any particular group, it would not only be doable, it would be easy. There's no need for any sort of magic or meticulous control or sneaking a peak into the future or any other such fantasy.
beloved57
Well-known member
Benefits of election in Christ !
Eph 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The elect are and will be holy and without blame before God in Love, thats a benefit of election. Vs 4
The are and will be blessed with all spiritual blessings Vs 3
Predestination unto adoption of Children by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of Gods will Vs5
Acceptance in the beloved Vs 6
Redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus blood according to the riches of Gods Grace Vs 7
Eph 1:3-7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The elect are and will be holy and without blame before God in Love, thats a benefit of election. Vs 4
The are and will be blessed with all spiritual blessings Vs 3
Predestination unto adoption of Children by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of Gods will Vs5
Acceptance in the beloved Vs 6
Redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus blood according to the riches of Gods Grace Vs 7