Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

[1Mind1Spirit]

To all of you non Trinitarians, I have to appeal to you or warn you...
You can try to gang up on Tot, or any other Trin here but these people are not your problem. Your problem is scriptures.
Behold a small example:




Now the two types of Scripture quoted above are great, we should all
Either love or wonder at them. But please note the first one is in regards to prophecy so you can't really use it to prove anything --other than prophecy is not your friend. For it will always say what you least expect it to, just ask Israel...

But let's just say you do want to use it the way it is presented above...
So now, good sir, please explain why, or at least what it means, when Rev 1:14 is using Daniel 7:9 to describe what The Lord Jesus looks like when He appears in a vision to John?


You see the Trins of the past looked at ALL the Scriptures.

It may take a long long time but will anyone ever get more verses on one side or another? That's Trinity for you. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Blessed Trinity.

First and foremost I am not a unitarian.

I believe Yeshua when he said that up till the time he emptied himself and was made like unto his brethren, he and the Father both worked.



John 5:17 KJV

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto , and I work .



Hebrews 2:17 KJV


17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.



Philippians 2:8 KJV

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


You might want to look a little closer at that verse you quoted and not blow by the first part that speaks of thrones.


Zechariah 6:13 KJV


13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.



Revelation 3:21 KJV


21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[RevTestament]

Mark and Luke record HALF of Psalm 2:7 and therefore divide the choq-decree spoken to king David which is a terrible corruption that only corrupt people would not see any harm in doing:

Psalm 2:7 KJV
7. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.

And likely for this obvious reason many translations now rearrange Mark and Luke dropping the definite article from "the beloved" and putting "beloved" into the middle of the statement so that what has been done is not so blatantly obvious:

Mark 1:11 W/H
καὶ φωνὴ ἐγένετο ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν Σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.

Luke 3:22 W/H
καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡς περιστερὰν ἐπ' αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι Σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.

"Σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου" ~ "Thou art My Son" (ὁ ἀγαπητός - the beloved)

This is clearly the first half of the choq-decree given to king David in Psalm 2:7. The hackers chopped of half of a decree from God to king David and to Messiah Yeshua the son of David at his immersion because if left intact it nullifies the "Eternal Son" (oxymoronic-unprovable) doctrine.

First, if this was the reason they allegedly removed part of the decree, why would they leave it in full in Hebrews and Acts?
It is most apparent that they didn't remove anything, and that Heavenly Father was not quoting Psalms at all. He was merely announcing His Son - who I hasten to show was His Son BEFORE His baptism.
Secondly, Jesus announced He was the Father's Son even as an unbaptized child who was sent to do His Father's work. All scripture reveals He was sent into the world as the Father's Son, so there was no need for Him to be begotten as such at His baptism.

 

[genuineoriginal]

John was no Unitarian, "He was with God and He was God and all things were made by Him and the Logos became flesh and dwelled among us"

I care not for theological labels but I see from this that John was not Unitarian.

Even with that quote, John was still a Unitarian.
You ignore the rest of his writings to focus on a few proof texts.

Proof texts are texts that are used to prove doctrine. The relation between God and the Christ is Father and Son.

....it really is quite foolish not to understand what a father is to the son and the son to the father. The Jews understood for they took up stones to stone Him...they handed Him over to be crucified for blasphemy.

Yes, the relationship between Father and Son is exactly why so many people reject the idea of Trinity.

How often we have been accused of blasphemy for worshipping Christ as God.

Christ never said to worship Him as God.
Christ said over and over to worship the Father and no other.

No YOU are the cult, the motley crowd, the outsiders, don't kid yourself....in the world you are the majority for the world does not believe but the Church of the Living God has always been Trinitarian.

The Church of the Living God was Unitarian from the giving of the Shema until the time of Augustine.

He was in the world and the world was made by Him but the world knew Him not....you are of the world then.

You are mistaken in thinking you can know God while denying what the scriptures clearly speak about Him.

Only God can save.

Yes, and only God can delegate Salvation to His Son.
Or haven't you read the Gospel of John?

John 3:35 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.​

John 5:26-27 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.​

John 13:3 3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;​

John 17:1-3 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

No, John was not a Trinitarian.
John believed in the Father as God and Jesus as the Son of God sent to be the promised Messiah according to the words John wrote.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

The Gospel according to the Apostle John, after Peter had been murdered on an upside-down cross, chapter 14:

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.​

Is this Jesus claiming to be God?
Or is He claiming to be just like everybody else?


Daniel

1.1
​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Is this Jesus claiming to be God?


Daniel

1.1
​

Nope.

Or is He claiming to be just like everybody else?

Not just like everybody else.

He is firstborn, the preeminent one who makes everybody else like him.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No, there will not be more verses on one side or the other.
There may be around two dozen verses used to support the Trinity, depending on who provides the list. The number of verses really will not increase from that.
There are several different ideas on what constitutes a Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these fine details formed the majority of the debates between Trinitarians.

There may be around 1200 verses used to support Unitarianism, again depending on who provides the list. The number of verses really will not increase from that.
The evidence from scriptures is that everyone that wrote the scriptures was a Unitarian.

Trinitarian and Unitarian are not the only valid views.
Some people only see Jesus and the Father as persons, and hold the Dinitarian view.
Other people count the seven spirits as the Holy Spirit, and hold the Nonitarian view (nine in one).

In order of scriptural support, the overwhelming majority of scripture supports a Unitarian reading.

Of the rest, the Dinitarian view has stronger scriptural support than the Trinitarian view, and the Nonitarian view is a variation of the Trinitarian view with a bit weaker support than the standard Trinitarian variations.

You folks are the only ones who deny scripture, we do not deny the scriptures that present Jesus Christ the Man, you deny the scriptures which present Him as God.

 

[eddie17]

So what you are saying is that you do not have a proper understanding of the nature of God?

If you say so,then i must be wrong.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You folks are the only ones who deny scripture, we do not deny the scriptures that present Jesus Christ the Man, you deny the scriptures which present Him as God.

Are you a Dinatarian?

 

[eddie17]

A thought just popped into my head,do you think when your final day comes that our Lord will care about what title you have???

 

[Totton Linnet]

Are you a Dinatarian?

This is the point, the only purpose of denying the Trin is to deny the deity of Christ....that is it in a nutshell. The devil knows that the human Christ saves no-one, and actually no would either believe He is able or call upon Him to.

The merely human Christ is ineffectual.

Once you establish that Christ is God then you see that the one true God has Persons....I don't care what people call it.

Nor is the Holy Spirit either the Son or the Father, but He is God.

 

[daqq]

First, if this was the reason they allegedly removed part of the decree, why would they leave it in full in Hebrews and Acts?
It is most apparent that they didn't remove anything, and that Heavenly Father was not quoting Psalms at all. He was merely announcing His Son - who I hasten to show was His Son BEFORE His baptism.
Secondly, Jesus announced He was the Father's Son even as an unbaptized child who was sent to do His Father's work. All scripture reveals He was sent into the world as the Father's Son, so there was no need for Him to be begotten as such at His baptism.

Hebrews 1:5 KJV
5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 5:4-6 KJV
4. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Did the Father make the Psalm 2:7 decree to Yeshua while he was yet in the womb of Mariam? Did He make it to Yeshua in eternity past where no one else could hear? Did He make that decree to Yeshua in his eternity future, after he was resurrected, as you insist by how you have reinterpreted Acts 13:33? Where did the Father speak these words from Psalm 2:7 to Yeshua? And if they were never spoken audibly to him then the author of Hebrews has no true evidence for writing what he states in the passages quoted above. And if the Father never spoke these words to Yeshua while he was a man walking the earth then Yeshua exalted himself to be made a High Priest after the order of MelkiTzedek because he took it upon himself to believe that the decree from Psalm 2:7 was his own when the Father never actually spoke those words audibly to him to begin with. You have effectively eliminated the witnesses to the very truth of the statement by eliminating the words of the Father spoken to Yeshua at his immersion just because you apparently do not wish to accept the fact that Yeshua was ever actually begotten, (even though the Scripture still says that he was in other places). You therefore by your doctrine make God a liar, as well as Yeshua, and as well the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews. You destroy the truth just as the "church fathers" did so that you can continue to believe what you want to believe regardless of what the Scripture actually says as a whole. The above passages are not going anywhere; allow them to burn into your forehead and brand your heart. :wave:

 

[rainee]

Hi GO!
I am sorry to say I disagree with you, but it would take us practically for ever for me to either win or lose in this mental arm wrastling over Scriptures, so I just say thank you for giving all those names I can look up later.

No, there will not be more verses on one side or the other.
There may be around two dozen verses used to support the Trinity, depending on who provides the list. The number of verses really will not increase from that.
There are several different ideas on what constitutes a Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these fine details formed the majority of the debates between Trinitarians.

There may be around 1200 verses used to support Unitarianism, again depending on who provides the list. The number of verses really will not increase from that.
The evidence from scriptures is that everyone that wrote the scriptures was a Unitarian.

Trinitarian and Unitarian are not the only valid views.
Some people only see Jesus and the Father as persons, and hold the Dinitarian view.
Other people count the seven spirits as the Holy Spirit, and hold the Nonitarian view (nine in one).

In order of scriptural support, the overwhelming majority of scripture supports a Unitarian reading.

Of the rest, the Dinitarian view has stronger scriptural support than the Trinitarian view, and the Nonitarian view is a variation of the Trinitarian view with a bit weaker support than the standard Trinitarian variations.

 

[rainee]

Hi rainee,

They are the same vision. This would make sense if what we see is the Christ(Temple) with the Spirit of God that dwells IN him.

Now this surprised me!
And hello

How are these the same vision?

 

[rainee]

First and foremost I am not a unitarian.

I believe Yeshua when he said that up till the time he emptied himself and was made like unto his brethren, he and the Father both worked.



John 5:17 KJV

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto , and I work .



Hebrews 2:17 KJV


17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.



Philippians 2:8 KJV

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


You might want to look a little closer at that verse you quoted and not blow by the first part that speaks of thrones.


Zechariah 6:13 KJV


13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.



Revelation 3:21 KJV


21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Ok. I respected your position and things you have said before.
I believe, but could be wrong, that you have something still to wrestle with, with The Lord.

 

[rainee]

Hi Daqq!

You are totally new to me!
So I don't have any idea exactly where you are coming from...

But there you go, fighting prophecy with... Prophecy.

Sigh.

Daniel 10:5-6
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 1:13-16
13. And in the midst of the seven lamps one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shines in his strength.

Lamentations 4:7
7. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:

Ah, yes, I too LOVE the Scripture!

I am glad you love Scripture And I am glad you showed us that Lamentations verse, I didn't remember it at all.
I haven't read Lamentations since I wanted to die and that was a very long time ago. So long ago in fact I had almost forgotten I had ever been in such a bad way, wanting to leave this life, this world, the people, me.

Although you do make a point with whipping that verse out, IMHO, you still should acknowledge that John must know, and expects every Jew at least, perhaps every believer, to see the "hair white as snow" as an "Ancient of Days" reference...ok?

 

[genuineoriginal]

This is the point, the only purpose of denying the Trin is to deny the deity of Christ....that is it in a nutshell.

No, that is a lie from the pit of hell.

Dinatarians believe the same as Trinitarians, with the exception that they do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person.
Nonitarians believe the same as Trinitarians, with the exception that they believe the seven spirits of God make up the Holy Spirit.
Unitarians believe in the deity of Christ, they just do not believe "god" is the substance that God is made from, they believe the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God.

The funny thing is despite the strife raised by Trinitarians to force their belief on others, it doesn't matter which of the four ways you believe, since belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation.

The devil knows that the human Christ saves no-one, and actually no would either believe He is able or call upon Him to.

The merely human Christ is ineffectual.

You must have a belief in what Christ came to do and how Christ saves that is not found in the Bible.
There is nothing in the Bible that says Christ needs to be God in order to save.
If you are unable to believe that Christ has been given the authority to judge and grant eternal life by the Father, then you deny what scripture clearly states.
If you can't believe in what God The Father can do through an obedient human so much that you would refuse to call on Christ, then your faith is as lacking as the Pharisees that refused to believe on Him.

Once you establish that Christ is God then you see that the one true God has Persons....I don't care what people call it.

You are making a case for a Dinitarian belief, which was held by a lot of Christians before the Trinity doctrine was established.

Nor is the Holy Spirit either the Son or the Father, but He is God.

History shows that this believe only became established at the second ecumenical council at Constantinople in 381 CE.

Most Christians never even thought of the Holy Spirit as God Himself until the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated, and scriptural support for that belief is scant.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Hi GO!
I am sorry to say I disagree with you,

Hi rainee,
It is no problem if you disagree with me.
My only public position on the matter is that belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation.

but it would take us practically for ever for me to either win or lose in this mental arm wrastling over Scriptures, so I just say thank you for giving all those names I can look up later.

There are other variations of belief in the nature of God and His Christ.

The one that appears to have had the most widespread support from the time of the death of the Apostles to the time of Augustine is Dinitarian, also called Binitarian, which believes both the Father and His Christ are God.

Trinitarians have a harder time arguing scripture against Dinitarians than against Unitarians.

 

[Zeke]

Nope.





Not just like everybody else.

He is firstborn, the preeminent one who makes everybody else like him.

Being the first born from the dead, which doesn't mean physical death but the Divine seed/pearl lying in a dormant state of ignorance in flesh/field/whale/, which is dramatized in the prodigal being once regarded as dead but alive again, Jesus represents everyone that awakens from that sleep referred to as a Divine state of death.

Him is US, Divine seeds turn into Divine beings just like every seed bearing life form creates it's own kind.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Being the first born from the dead, which doesn't mean physical death but the Divine seed/pearl lying in a dormant state of ignorance in flesh/field/whale/, which is dramatized in the prodigal being once regarded as dead but alive again, Jesus represents everyone that awakens from that sleep referred to as a Divine state of death.

Him is US, Divine seeds turn into Divine beings just like every seed bearing life form creates it's own kind.

Divinity isn't just a "kind" or "species" of being/s. It includes inate attributes, including uncreatedness and uncaused beginning, etc.

Since we are intrinsically created with a caused beginning, we are not and do not become divine. Those who believe the actual biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ by faith (rather than esoteric mumbo-jumbo about becoming divine), are partakers OF the divine nature.

Man has never been, is not, and does not become... divine. Instead, we are partakers OF the divine nature by being IN Christ. The Gospel is knowing exactly what that means, as revealed by the Spirit and the Word.

There is NO other Gospel.

 

[Zeke]

Divinity isn't just a "kind" or "species" of being/s. It includes inate attributes, including uncreatedness and uncaused beginning, etc.

Since we are intrinsically created with a caused beginning, we are not and do not become divine. Those who believe the actual biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ by faith (rather than esoteric mumbo-jumbo about becoming divine), are partakers OF the divine nature.

Man has never been, is not, and does not become... divine. Instead, we are partakers OF the divine nature by being IN Christ. The Gospel is knowing exactly what that means, as revealed by the Spirit and the Word.

There is NO other Gospel.

Once you shed this body or tomb of flesh you return to where you came as did the prodigal, the first born of the flesh/matter is just a host for the Divine seed that is the second born 1Cor15:45, same motif as Galatians 4:24-26. Which seed of the Divine is the mystery we will find out at the twinkle.