Do you believe in predestination ?

[Lon]

I see this as another example of a logically impossible challenge. God can't create a square circle, it would be absurd to insist that He could. Likewise, He could not predict what someone will do, tell them and be shown right every time.

As I said previously, 'awareness' is the mark of divinity, not 'freewill.' We were more Godly when sin wasn't the choice because that choice caused what we know as freewill today (a will to do otherwise). Because I believe 'freewill' is naught but 'sin-will' it cannot be a gift. We are in a state of faux-independence (more so with American independents), we value, but do not recognize the problem of this 'free to do as we will.' It is true, this is the way we are born, but Colossians 1:15-17 tells us we really aren't 'independent.' John 15:5 says the same. What we are, is in trouble and this is the gospel message. All have sinned and fall short. Romans 3:23 The wages of sin is death. Romans 5:8 The gift of God is Jesus Christ Romans 6:23

Freewill then, doesn't matter, in fact, freewill has to be negated. We become 'Christ-willed' rather than "Freewilled." In a sense, I agree with you and all freewill people, that freewill has to exist or men could not be condemned, but I'm saying that it matters only for those perishing. For we who believe, we have no free-will, but His alone. In this sense, those in Christ are 'free' in will from sin, and those without Him are 'free' from God's demands. Does God know it all? Yes. Does it affect either of these two will? No, because both are controlled though they may 'think' they are free. It just isn't true. Matthew 6:24 We are simply free at one point from God, and free at another point from sin.

Awareness is an appreciation, an ability to grasp the goodness of God and His love. It doesn't require anything, just an awareness. You might add 'acceptance' but without God actually making us new creations, it isn't something we can have until then. I realize this is a whole package (why I'm reckoned a Calvinist).

 

[Stripe]

Show it.

It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.

 

[ttruscott]

You and I, in Christ, are brothers - No choice. Further? We don't care. That choice was made for us and we couldn't be happier. It is a relationship fully out of both of our choices. We can argue it is a consequence but consequences aren't the choice, they are all the results of. Long ago, the Lord Jesus Christ purposed to save us.

You may not feel a need to care but those who Christ did NOT purpose to save probably feel differently about this...

...or rather I feel a need to exonerate HIM from the implication of unconditional election which implies unconditional non-election, ie sending innocents to hell by bypassing them for election unconditionally...

 

[Lon]

You may not feel a need to care but those who Christ did NOT purpose to save probably feel differently about this...

:nono: Matthew 13:15 Romans 10:13-16 "The people have seen a great light and the darkness has not comprehended it."

...or rather I feel a need to exonerate HIM for sending innocents

:think: Romans 3:10,11,23

to hell by bypassing them for election unconditionally...

Job 13:8 Romans 9:16

With both verses (and chapters) I tremble.

Job 38:1-4

Job 40:1-8

How may you or I contend with the Almighty?

 

[Lon]

It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.

I'm not sure what he's asking. It seems like anybody could come up with a scenario where God is not omniscient. Perhaps he means show it from scripture? :idunno:

 

[ttruscott]

Mans religion teaches contrary to scripture, that Gods predestination is premised on Gods foresight of mans doing something, his works or believing etc, but its not true. Gods predestination is conditioned upon the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1: 11

What purpose did HE have that condemned so many to hell for no condition at all against the scripture 2 Peter 3:9 Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. and 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ​Doesn't sound to me like HE purposed them to suffer eternal death in hell so why pass them over for election???

You got another practiced deke by rote to trot out for us??

 

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Stripe
It's an (informal) proof by contradiction. If God knows all, He could tell me what I will choose between A and B. He tells me A, but I could still choose B.

I'm not sure what he's asking. It seems like anybody could come up with a scenario where God is not omniscient. Perhaps he means show it from scripture? :idunno:

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Works is commonly taken to refer to HIS creative decrees, which implies that if HE did not create something by a work of creation then HE would not know it, that is, if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know them until we created them and made them real.

This verse also says that HE know all things from the beginning of the world, NOT eternity past.

 

[Nang]

You may not feel a need to care but those who Christ did NOT purpose to save probably feel differently about this...

...or rather I feel a need to exonerate HIM from the implication of unconditional election which implies unconditional non-election, ie sending innocents to hell by bypassing them for election unconditionally...

No “innocents” will be sent to hell, for there is no such thing as an “innocent.”

God’s grace overcomes and conquers the reality of universal sin and the total depravity of all mankind. Romans 3:19

Not a single living soul has ever deserved God’s mercy or saving grace.

 

[Lon]

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. which implies that if HE did not create it by a work of creation the HE would not know it, that is, if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know them until we created them and made them real.

This verse also says that HE know all things from the beginning of the world, NOT eternity past.

If your only contention with predestination is what 'you' think He can and cannot do, then your theology is based off of your sensibilities rather than truth. I came at this from a whole 'nother direction: Read what it says, believe it, and realize I'm not the person, as intelligent as I may or not be, to tell God 1) what He must know, or 2) why He can't know that. Open Theism 'seems' like dictation to me with God as the secretary. Rather, what does scripture say?

John 21:17 Simple question: true or false???

John 16:30 Same: true or false?

Another question:

John 21:18 John 13:38 How did the Lord Jesus Christ know?

Then the same question: He did know, true or false?

Yet another question:

Isaiah 40:13-14 What does it strongly imply? Can it possibly be anything else?

Hebrews 4:12-13 How much is 'clearly laid bare' before the Lord? How much?

Where do or can we go from here? We only need read and agree upon scriptures? What do these 'clearly' say?

In Him -Lon

 

[Nang]

A god that fails to possess the attributes of omniscience and sovereign omnibenevolence, is not the Creator God.

 

[Lon]

Acts 15:18 which implies that if HE did not create something by a work of creation then HE would not know it

Does it? Does it really imply that? :nono: It doesn't imply at all that this is the 'extent' of His knowledge. Further? It would also 'imply' that God knows all 'from the beginning.' It isn't enough just to get 'implications.'

 

[Bright Raven]

A god that fails to possess the attributes of omniscience and sovereign omnibenevolence, is not the Creator God.

Does this include the practice of "Open Theism" which teaches that God is only partially omniscient?

 

[Stripe]

If HE did not create the results of our free will decisions then HE would not know them until we created them and made them real.

If He "created the results," we do not have a will.

 

[Stripe]

Partially omniscient.

That's a bit of an oxy moron.

An open theist would say that the future is not set in stone; God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.

 

[Bright Raven]

That's a bit of an oxy moron.

An open theist would say that the future is not set in stone; God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge.

Then He is not totally omniscient.

 

[ttruscott]

No “innocents” will be sent to hell, for there is no such thing as an “innocent.”

Not on earth in mankind, you are right ...

but I am talking about BEFORE the foundation of the world when we were elected or not elected, before all sin, everyone was innocent (since it is rejected that GOD looked forward to see who would put their faith in HIM) and the doctrine of unconditional election necessitates an UNconditional non-election of some of these innocents, that is, innocents being passed over for election for no reason, innocents in the end being condemned to hell for no reason.

 

[ttruscott]

If your only contention with predestination is what 'you' think He can and cannot do, then your theology is based off of your sensibilities rather than truth.

If my contentions are only that then so are your contentions. Prove your ideas about the meaning of any verse is absolute truth! You can't or all would have to accept that proof for that is what proof means...it can't be denied. That is why I live by faith, not proof.

 

[ttruscott]

A god that fails to possess the attributes of omniscience and sovereign omnibenevolence, is not the Creator God.

Okaaaaay, but who gets to define HIS omniscience, the pagan Greeks who taught us that He knows all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future which implies HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY! ...a blasphemy against HIS nature of being lovingly righteous and just that the Church happily ignores because the definition is oh so holy...

...even though it is not supported by the only verse which states clearly HE Know all HIS works for the beginning of the world.

Obviously there are counter arguments against any interpretation of any verse but surely the one which removes any hint of the stink of blasphemy from our doctrine is to be preferred?

 

[ttruscott]

It doesn't imply at all that this is the 'extent' of His knowledge.

This is true but since the beginning of the world, HE knows all HIS works, all that HE creates. Why say this if it is meaningless?

 

[Nang]

Does this include the practice of "Open Theism" which teaches that God is only partially omniscient?

Yes.