ECT Do those who believe MAD have no problem disregarding what Jesus actually taught ?
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If you submit.
I never said all who claim Christ are in Christ. But those who are are not in the flesh. Romans 8:9. You missed that part, didn't you?
:chuckle:
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Body part
I could not pick that up from the text in your post. :BRAVO:I wasn't disagreeing with you. So, duh back at ya
Marhig...
This condemnation here...
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Refers to this sense of self-condemnation in the flesh here...
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Paul is referring to the resulting sense of self-condemnation that attempting to serve the Lord by putting oneself back under the Law, or any type of PERFORMANCE BASED sense of acceptance will only lead to.
This sense of self-condemnation here...
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The sense of "darn it - I blew it again!!!"
Solution?
Think like...view yourself like...God views you now...this side...of Grace.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Thus, the natural flow from the failure and resulting sense of self-condemnation that Romans 7 has been describing that attempting to serve God in one's own strength and or for His approval (as had been the case under the Law).
Thus, the natural flow from that and from the issue of attempting to serve God FOR righteousness (the Law's Performance BASED Acceptance) to the sense of...
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And Paul has already stated that the "walk in" that he is referring to is an outlook, a mindset, a perspective - a where
..one is looking at things from...
Notice....
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Said outlook being the operative principle the Spirit operates in the Believer based on.
The operative principle that...
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
To "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" refers to which of either of those two perspectives the Believer is looking at things from.
Paul's point is that the Believer's victory lies in looking at things from where the Spirit looks at things from...
What perspective is that?
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Paul is contrasting two different, opposed outlooks, or frames of mind...
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Verse 8 is the same issue as that of verse 17 in the following...
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Note...
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
You see this here?
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Well, as with Galatians, Romans 7 is "correction" of unsound perspective.
It is "correction" based on "doctrine" or "instruction in righteousness" that Paul had already taught the Galatians, and that he has already written of in Romans 1-5, by the time he begins dealing with the issues he is dealing with in Romans 6-8.
These things are all connected with one another throughout Paul's Christ given writings to him, and through him, as "the Apostle of the Gentiles" to the Body of Christ, this side of "BUT NOW, the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is made manifest" Romans 3:21.
The Law was a PERFORMANCE BASED Acceptance.
Grace is an "IT IS FINISHED" BASED Acceptance.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
All THAT is a perspective...
The perspective of...
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This condemnation here...
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Refers to this sense of self-condemnation in the flesh here...
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Paul is referring to the resulting sense of self-condemnation that attempting to serve the Lord by putting oneself back under the Law, or any type of PERFORMANCE BASED sense of acceptance will only lead to.
This sense of self-condemnation here...
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The sense of "darn it - I blew it again!!!"
Solution?
Think like...view yourself like...God views you now...this side...of Grace.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Thus, the natural flow from the failure and resulting sense of self-condemnation that Romans 7 has been describing that attempting to serve God in one's own strength and or for His approval (as had been the case under the Law).
Thus, the natural flow from that and from the issue of attempting to serve God FOR righteousness (the Law's Performance BASED Acceptance) to the sense of...
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And Paul has already stated that the "walk in" that he is referring to is an outlook, a mindset, a perspective - a where
..one is looking at things from...
Notice....
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Said outlook being the operative principle the Spirit operates in the Believer based on.
The operative principle that...
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
To "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" refers to which of either of those two perspectives the Believer is looking at things from.
Paul's point is that the Believer's victory lies in looking at things from where the Spirit looks at things from...
What perspective is that?
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Paul is contrasting two different, opposed outlooks, or frames of mind...
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Verse 8 is the same issue as that of verse 17 in the following...
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Note...
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
You see this here?
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Well, as with Galatians, Romans 7 is "correction" of unsound perspective.
It is "correction" based on "doctrine" or "instruction in righteousness" that Paul had already taught the Galatians, and that he has already written of in Romans 1-5, by the time he begins dealing with the issues he is dealing with in Romans 6-8.
These things are all connected with one another throughout Paul's Christ given writings to him, and through him, as "the Apostle of the Gentiles" to the Body of Christ, this side of "BUT NOW, the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is made manifest" Romans 3:21.
The Law was a PERFORMANCE BASED Acceptance.
Grace is an "IT IS FINISHED" BASED Acceptance.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
All THAT is a perspective...
The perspective of...
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
marhig
Well-known member
I have been forgiven of all my trespasses, but only my past ones until I came to know God. Now I'm to turn from sin. I don't take God lightly, if I'm circumcised of the heart, that means my heart is being cleansed and if my heart is being cleansed then I should be turning from sin and the rudiments of the world. If I'm truly walking in the spirit, then I should have the holy spirit within and if the spirit is in my heart, then Christ should be made manifest in me and Christ didn't wilfully sin. So if Christ didn't wilfully sin and he is in us and we are his, then we turn from sin and we don't take advantage of God, as if we're some kind of elect that Satan can't touch. Oh yes he can if we bow down to our flesh and let him in through our own lusts.
Those who truly belong to Christ see themselves as unprofitable servants here do so Gods will, and not live by the ordinances of the world or by the will of man, but by the will of God. God comes first, and if we have Christ in us, then God will come first before everything. If God isn't first in our lives, and we aren't living by his will, then Christ is far from us!
marhig
Well-known member
So when Jesus told you to take up your cross, did he mean that you have to be crucified?
marhig
Well-known member
By the way, smoking, drinking etc.
I believe are sins yes, but they kill the flesh as damage the body that God gave us and we are to try and turn from them. But the worse sins are those that destroy the heart, lust, to covet, greed, selfishness, hardness of heart, hatred, spite, wilfully sinning, lying, fornication, cruelty, being judgemental, pride, lovers of the world, envy and vanity etc. These are an abomination to God, they are the works of Satan.
There are many that smoke and drink that don't know God but have a better heart then many who profess to know him. I've seen people who say they know God walk right past the needy, yet others who look as rough as anything help them. Which one has the right heart? And God looks the heart!
Once God cleanses our hearts through Christ, then eventually, we can put our hand to stopping those things that destroy or body on the outside, one by one. God looks first and foremost at the heart, and the heart isn't being cleansed. Then we are dead in our sins. We can look holier than thou, but be dead inside. It's not the outward appearance, that can be deceptive. It's the heart that counts!
marhig
Well-known member
Yes if they are truly not of the flesh, what is not of the flesh to you?
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marhig
Well-known member
Hi Danoh,
I know that I can't do anything myself, I know that I'm weak in my flesh and many a times I say blimey I shouldn't have done that and go to God and say sorry and if I can, i put it right. And I know that it's Christ by the spirit who is saving me from myself everyday. I couldn't do it without him, I am a sinner saved by the grace of God. I know that.
But I don't believe that being saved means eternal salvation, but saved from our past sins and being saved from sinning by the strength of Christ through the spirit every day and only by the grace of God through faith. I believe we have to continue in this and fight the good fight, deny ourselves when we know it's wrong do something and bare our cross and follow Jesus.
But, I do believe that we can turn back again, if I start living by the will of my flesh again and I start to forget the things of God and turn away from him, then he will leave me. Even Jesus himself said "my father never leaves me because I always do those things that please.him" so why would God stay with us when we are putting our flesh before him and not pleasing him?
I don't believe that just living under the law is good enough, we have live by faith. Once we have true faith in God, and we are born of God, then as we walk in the spirit, we will abide by Gods laws. Jesus even said that if we obey the two main commandments, which is to love God with all our heart, mind and soul and our neighbour as ourselves then we will be obeying the law, because on these two commandments hangs all the law and the prophets. Why is this?
Because if we truly love God with our all and love our neighbour as ourselves, then we won't hurt them or do anything underhand to them, because if Christ is in us, then we will help those we see in need whoever they are and whatever they have done, we won't judge with our flesh, we will be looking with the eyes of Christ and listening with the ears Christ, and we won't look down on others, because the love of Christ will be overflowing in our hearts and and we will be living to please God and we will be bringing God to them through our lives with the hope that through Christ, they will listen to the word of God and be healed!
I know God and Christ are with me, I am being strengthened every day to resist the things of the flesh and Christ is helping me to overcome, I look at my flesh and I'm ashamed, I know what I'm capable of and what I'm like, and I know that without God and Christ I'd still be dead, lost in the this world of sin, being controlled by Satan.
Jesus is my saviour and he's saved me and pulled me out of the pit of darkness and brought me into the light and love of God. And I want everyone feel what I feel, because the love and peace I have in my heart is overwhelming. And nothing in this world compares with it. And I think that it's worth denying my flesh for. God has shown me that this flesh and this world are nothing, he's shown me a better way through Christ Jesus. A way of true love, and I feel that love in my heart for everyone. I don't see myself as elect or special, and I don't look down on anybody, my hope is that all get to know God and get to heaven. I'm just here to do Gods will and please him and I'm truly blessed to know him.
Right Divider
Body part
Certainly in one sense.
Rom 6:5-9 (KJV)
(6:5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: (6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (6:7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (6:8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (6:9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Right Divider
Body part
Oh, that flowery religious talk. You probably felt wonderful while you were typing all of that.
We are to do more than "turn from sin", we are to DIE to sin. See Romans 6.
marhig
Well-known member
Actually I didn't feel wonderful at all, I feel ashamed of my flesh, and you'd be surprised, I'm far from religious or flowery.
And you're right, we should be dead to sin. But I'm afraid there was only one who was dead to sin and that was Christ, and he is helping us to overcome sin every day but we still sin. We should be turning from sin, in other words when we are faced with a choice of right or wrong, choose right and listen to our conscience. I don't know about you, but I sometimes have to really fight myself to listen to my conscience as my flesh wants to do the opposite of what conscience is telling me to do. I have to have a right battle against myself!
To die to sin is death to self, and yes that's what we should be striving towards. With the help of Christ.
marhig
Well-known member
But not in the other sense, not naturally?
And how can we be planted in the likeness of his death if it is a natural death? That's because there are two deaths, his natural death on the cross, and his death to self. And that's how he died reconcile us to God. He was dead to flesh but alive the spirit and in the image God and we are reconciled to God if we believe, repent and turn to God. And we are saved by his life!
We don't have to be naturally crucified to take up our cross, And nor did Jesus. He bore his cross to bare witness to the truth and he was dead to the flesh and in the fullness the spirit brought us the ministry of reconciliation which is the gospel.
1 Peter 3
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit
We can only be one or the other, not both.
This post is a "Piece of Art." I say that in all sincerity. Great post Heir.
Duplicate
When we become a member of the "Body of Christ" and a "Child of God" the Bible says in Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" That means the essence of our "Spiritual self" is already connected to Christ in the Heavenlies. We are positioned in Christ and are guaranteed eternal life and cannot lose that position in Him. However, we are still in our flesh and therefore, are susceptible to commit sin. Being a member of the Body of Christ means we have been forgiven of any and all sins, past, present and future.
Revelation 20:12 states: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." You'll notice it says, "According to tho their WORKS. That verse speaks of the "unsaved" that must stand before God and be judged by their WORKS! You'll notice it doesn't say: "According to their SINS." Why? Because Christ died on the cross for the sins of ALL humanity. Therefore, God's Grace was made available to every human being that ever existed. However, the prerequisite of receiving eternal life and all the other benefits of Christ's sacrifice is: Hearing the Gospel and placing ALL of one's faith, in Christ as their Savior. We cannot place a third of our faith in Christ and a third of our faith in our works/good deeds, and the other third in our church attendance. We MUST place ALL of our faith in Christ alone.
The penalty for rejecting the Grace Gospel (Paul's Gospel given to him by the Ascended Lord Jesus Christ) is the Judgement of God and the penalty of being cast into the "Lake of Fire" for all eternity. One might ask: "Where do I find faith?" The Bible states in Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." You'll find faith in the word of God, the Bible. If you're not sure you're saved, I would recommend that you start reading/studying the writings of Paul: Romans through Philemon. I would further suggest that, before you open the Bible (Preferably King James or New King James versions of the Bible) pray to God that, He'll give you wisdom and knowledge for what you're about to read.
After you've become a member of the Body of Christ, it's imperative you read the ENTIRE Bible, Old, and New Testaments. The Bible isn't all about us Gentiles, however, it is for all of us to read and study. Paul's writings are for us today. The Gospel he preaches is for Jews and Gentiles alike. His writings contain the ONLY way of salvation and eternal life, today. It is "The Grace Gospel."
Revelation 20:12 states: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." You'll notice it says, "According to tho their WORKS. That verse speaks of the "unsaved" that must stand before God and be judged by their WORKS! You'll notice it doesn't say: "According to their SINS." Why? Because Christ died on the cross for the sins of ALL humanity. Therefore, God's Grace was made available to every human being that ever existed. However, the prerequisite of receiving eternal life and all the other benefits of Christ's sacrifice is: Hearing the Gospel and placing ALL of one's faith, in Christ as their Savior. We cannot place a third of our faith in Christ and a third of our faith in our works/good deeds, and the other third in our church attendance. We MUST place ALL of our faith in Christ alone.
The penalty for rejecting the Grace Gospel (Paul's Gospel given to him by the Ascended Lord Jesus Christ) is the Judgement of God and the penalty of being cast into the "Lake of Fire" for all eternity. One might ask: "Where do I find faith?" The Bible states in Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." You'll find faith in the word of God, the Bible. If you're not sure you're saved, I would recommend that you start reading/studying the writings of Paul: Romans through Philemon. I would further suggest that, before you open the Bible (Preferably King James or New King James versions of the Bible) pray to God that, He'll give you wisdom and knowledge for what you're about to read.
After you've become a member of the Body of Christ, it's imperative you read the ENTIRE Bible, Old, and New Testaments. The Bible isn't all about us Gentiles, however, it is for all of us to read and study. Paul's writings are for us today. The Gospel he preaches is for Jews and Gentiles alike. His writings contain the ONLY way of salvation and eternal life, today. It is "The Grace Gospel."