Yeah...I shoulda' said, "What GOD hath separated let no man join together".
I think 'conflation' actually means to blow up two balloons at the same time. :noid:
ECT Do those who believe MAD have no problem disregarding what Jesus actually taught ?
- Thread starter dodge
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Yeah...I shoulda' said, "What GOD hath separated let no man join together".
I think 'conflation' actually means to blow up two balloons at the same time. :noid:
dodge
New member
I believe one of the purposes Jesus fulfilled was revealing the "mystery" that was hid for ages. The Holy Spirit,not Paul, delivered the meaning of the "mystery" to "all" of the Apostles as Paul taught.
Consider the following, bro. It is to take place after that great darkness of the Great Tribulation that is to come upon this world...
After which God gathers Israel from the four corners of the Earth...
Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Those Gentiles will come to the Lord through Israel after Israel's rising, bro.
That is this...
Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
But that is after this...
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
But this happened...
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Thus, this, for now...
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
This here, remaining on hold...
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Til this...
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
At least that is the Basic Acts 9 view on that, aka Mid-Acts.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The mystery was simply that the things spoken of were true in Christ not in the literal sense.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Did Jesus preach the exact same good news as Peter preached after Jesus' death, burial, resurrection and ascension?
dodge
New member
Sreko, I believe He did !
Luke 24:45-48King James Version (KJV)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
I believe Paul preached Jesus' gospel as he is the one who was prophesied about, lived a sinless life, was crucified, rose the third day, and ascended into heaven.
That is referring to John's water baptism for the remission of sins (compare Matt. 3 with the whole of Acts 2 and 3).
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Consider that what you are doing is reading later revelation into that.
You have to take that narrative as it is - at that point within its' narrative.
Not read later narrative into it absent of much great care as to what goes where.
I mean, you ought to at least consider that.
Not believe me outright. But not reject it outright; either.
Rather; look into it further: before you allow yourself to be fully persuaded in your own mind.
I mean, He had told them that after His return back unto the Father, He would send them the Spirit that He might guide them unto all truth, and that in the very hour they needed to know what speak; the Spirit would be the One speaking through them.
We see the Spirit do just that - repeatedly - in Acts 1 thru 7.
And in Acts 5, The Spirit even enables Peter the ability to read the minds of Ananias and Sapphira.
And we see other signs and wonders the Spirit performs through them as their witness to Israel of "the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" Mark 16:20.
And yet, it is clear in Early Acts that just over a year or more after Pentecost, when Peter is sent to a Gentile in Acts 10; not only is that new to him; and not only does he take issue with it; but that it is also new to the other Apostles; who then take issue with him for that, in Acts 11.
Something is not kosher in all that, bro.
Something is not adding up.
Meaning...
Either they were ignorant - impossible, for they had the Spirit: both guiding them unto all truth; and empowering them in all said truth.
Or there is another explanation in Scripture, that is clear; no need to read one's own ideas into such things.
Another key being that Believing Israelites in Acts only bring up the issue of the need to observe the Circumcision ritual and the keeping of the Law, when the Gentiles start coming in.
Clearly, said issue had not been an issue prior to that because they had all remained under the Law - thus: their continuing worship at the Temple; entry into which involved various Israelite rituals under the Law.
Acts 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
You need to look at all those things.
Whether or not they fit your present view.
Forget those on here out to prove you wrong just to do so, in their obvious hypocrisy. Thus; their need to belittle you and or anyone who disagrees with them.
And you'd be wise not to allow yourself to lash out in kind.
Else, you have merely turned the unconditional grace of the Cross you may hold to, as anything but unconditional acceptance.
Further, if you do not allow yourself to lash out against their grace-less hypocrisy; you then allow yourself the ability to learn from them, where they are sound.
Because they themselves will not be the issue you yourself end up; focused on.
Fact is that the commissions at the end of Matt. thru John, and there in Acts 1, are the issue He first laid out to them in...
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Notice how that goes past that into its continuance in Early Acts...
Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Something changed at some point, after Acts 7...
The best toward you as to all this.
Interplanner
Well-known member
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The Great Blender.
Who's Sreko?
Did Jesus tell this to anyone other than the disciples? Did He tell the disciples not to preach about His death and resurrection before it took place?
Thank you.:e4e:Good to see you back, bro
It's good to see you too.
Interplanner
Well-known member
They were so mixed up with their Judaizing background, as shown in the outburst of Peter, especially as Galileans, that he did not want them to speak about it from that point (Peter's outburst) until after it had happened. God even blinded them about the meaning because they would probably have tried to prevent it from happening.
They drifted away from the crucified Messiah which he had made clear, although in John they come across more settled (end of ch 6). The drifting and blinding problem is mentioned only in the synoptics, because in John, the crucified Messiah is completely clear all through.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Thanks again, Dr. Phil.
dodge
New member
*Steko
Re-read the verses say to go and tell and that Jesus opened their understanding of the scriptures concerning Him.
There is the before and then there is the after.
Luke 24:45-48 King James Version (KJV)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The advanced study of this is why did they lose the crucified Christ during the 3 years, and why would they have reacted so strong to it that God had to hide it from them?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
So you agree the gospel preached by the 12 prior to the crucifixion was different than the gospel they preached after?