Do some of the Scriptural Truths offend you?

[Clete]

This is taught in several NT verses ...
Father God created all things through Jesus.
(But, Jesus did the actual creating!)

This is taught in Matthew 1 and Luke 1 ...
The Holy Spirit created Jesus, the man.
(But, Father God created Jesus through the Holy Spirit.)

So what are you suggesting? That the bible is contradictory?

I'm telling you. This is blasphemous heresy that can only possibly lead to your ruin.

The bible DOES NOT teach in Matthew 1, Luke 1 or anywhere else that Jesus was created - period. You clearly don't even know what it means for God to have created anything. Look up the term "ex nehilo". Maybe you'll get a clue. (Hint: It's not about the perfume!)

 

[Dougcho]

The bible DOES NOT teach in Matthew 1, Luke 1 or anywhere else that Jesus was created - period.
You clearly don't even know what it means for God to have created anything. Look up the term "ex nehilo".

OK, so what do you think happened when Holy Spirit put a fetus in Mary's womb?
Did He not create the fetus?
BTW ... Gabriel said to call this fetus "Jesus" and "the Son of God".
Just like he told Zechariah to call Elizabeth's fetus "John".

 

[Clete]

OK, so what do you think happened when Holy Spirit put a fetus in Mary's womb?
Did He not create the fetus?

No, not in the sense of Him having created the universe. Mary had an egg which God fertilized by some means which is not explained to us aside from it being miraculous (i.e. supernatural). The fetus certainly was not "created" (i.e. ex nihilo) though or else it wouldn't have been a human fetus.

BTW ... Gabriel said to call this fetus "Jesus" and "the Son of God".
Just like he told Zechariah to call Elizabeth's fetus "John".

So what? No one denies that "Jesus" wasn't God's name until He became flesh and dwelt among us. An argument you have been repeatedly presented with and which you completely ignore because you're a dishonest waste of time who isn't at all interested in whether your doctrine is actually correct or not. You want to believe this stupidity and so God Himself couldn't move you one single inch away from it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was the GOD-man ...
fully God and fully man.

Correct.

This "being" was created by the Holy Spirit and the Word.

No, this is heresy!

That alone should give you pause!

My problem is ...
What really happened when the Word "became" Jesus (John 1:14)?
That sounds like all of His humanity was covered over, replaced, etc.
... and was now ONLY fully GOD!

Does anyone have any enlightenment on this?

It's called the incarnation of Christ, Doug.

The Logos became a man. He was given the name Jesus on the 8th day after his birth, according to the law.

Why you think otherwise is beyond me.

Jesus existed prior to His conception.

Why do you continue to repeat yourself as though you haven't already been addressed.

 

[Lon]

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was the GOD-man ...
fully God and fully man.

This "being" was created by the Holy Spirit and the Word.

How? He is one being, two natures. One nature He Himself created (human), the other He always was, and all of Who He is. He became that which was from Mary whom He created and through the general avenue of human nature He had made, became flesh.

My problem is ...
What really happened when the Word "became" Jesus (John 1:14)?

The Word became, part of His creation.

That sounds like all of His humanity was covered over, replaced, etc.
... and was now ONLY fully GOD!

Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
That sounds like only God who is incorporeal?

Does anyone have any enlightenment on this?

Christology is the term for your query.

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus is God. He is not a created being.

Obviously, Jesus Christ was born of Mary
because of a miracle of the Holy Spirit ...
who placed, created, etc. a fetus in Mary's womb.
Hence, Jesus has been considered to be FULLY MAN.

Since the Word came from heaven and "became" Jesus,
the latter has been considered to be FULLY GOD.

The question is ...
What were the ramifications of the Word becoming Jesus?
Did He lose His human nature, sin nature, etc.?

 

[Clete]

Obviously, Jesus Christ was born of Mary
because of a miracle of the Holy Spirit ...
who placed, created, etc. a fetus in Mary's womb.
Hence, Jesus has been considered to be FULLY MAN.

Since the Word came from heaven and "became" Jesus,
the latter has been considered to be FULLY GOD.

The question is ...
What were the ramifications of the Word becoming Jesus?
Did He lose His human nature, sin nature, etc.?

It really doesn't seem to be that complicated. God became a human being and remains one to this day and forever more.

Amazing, even awe inspiring, to say the least, but still a pretty straight forward concept.

 

[Lon]

The question is ...
What were the ramifications of the Word becoming Jesus?
Did He lose His human nature, sin nature, etc.?

Hypostatic Union, Both God and man, one being.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Obviously, Jesus Christ was born of Mary because of a miracle of the Holy Spirit ... who placed, created, etc. a fetus in Mary's womb. Hence, Jesus has been considered to be FULLY MAN.

And the LOGOS (John 1:1) indwelt that flesh (John 1:14) and was given the name Jesus on the 8th day after his birth according to the law of Moses (Luke 2:21).

Jesus Christ is the LOGOS in the flesh! LITERALLY!

Since the Word came from heaven and "became" Jesus, the latter has been considered to be FULLY GOD.

It's the same person, Doug.

It's not two different people! It's not two "halves" that make a whole.

The LOGOS is Jesus. He is the God-Man, who was God, and never a man, who became a man, and will always be God and Man.

The question is ... What were the ramifications of the Word becoming Jesus? Did He lose His human nature, sin nature, etc.?

Your question doesn't make sense, in light of what scripture says.

Jesus is not a different being than the LOGOS. Your question assumes that they are different beings.

The LOGOS (God; Who is, and was, and always will be) became a man. He IS STILL a man, to this very moment! He didn't lose His humanity when He ascended into Heaven.

 

[Dougcho]

My whole point has always been that since
Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God
He was not in heaven prior to the Incarnation.
Butski, it appears that most of you haven't
comprehended this fact.
The Word (Logos) was in heaven prior to the
Incarnation, but Jesus born of Mary was not.
Why isn't this obvious?

 

[JudgeRightly]

He was not in heaven prior to the Incarnation.

Yes He was.

The LOGOS became flesh.

That's literally what "incarnation" means!

HE BECAME A MAN!

The Word (Logos) was in heaven prior to the Incarnation, but Jesus born of Mary was not. Why isn't this obvious?

Because it's false!

Jesus IS the LOGOS! He was in heaven with His Father prior to the incarnation!

Do you have a problem with object permanence or something?

 

[Clete]

My whole point has always been that since
Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God
He was not in heaven prior to the Incarnation.
Butski, it appears that most of you haven't
comprehended this fact.
The Word (Logos) was in heaven prior to the
Incarnation, but Jesus born of Mary was not.
Why isn't this obvious?

Because it's the exact same person, Doug!

 

[Dougcho]

Jesus IS the LOGOS! He was in heaven with His Father prior to the incarnation!

Ahhh, so ... Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God,
was in heaven prior to the Incarnation, was He?
No, No ... Jesus Christ, fully man, wasn't born until the Incarnation!

We're NOT talking about the Word, the Logos ...
we're talking about the Holy Babe, who was born of Mary ...
the Holy Spirit playing the role of His father ... at a definite point in time!
Remember reading the Father in the OT and NT, when He said:
"TODAY I have begotten You." <<.>> T'was in the manger.
He was speaking of His long-awaited Messiah (Christ).
Kapishe-ola?

 

[Dougcho]

Because it's the exact same person, Doug!

Ohhhh, I didn't realize that Jesus Christ, who was fully man,
was in heaven with the Father before the Incarnation!

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ahhh, so ... Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God,
was in heaven prior to the Incarnation, was He?

Yes. BEFORE He became a man, He was in heaven, fully God. He didn't have the name Jesus yet. He was known as the Word.

No, No ... Jesus Christ, fully man, wasn't born until the Incarnation!

You keep repeating this.

But repeating yourself isn't magically going to make what you say come true.

We're NOT talking about the Word, the Logos ...

Yes, we are.

The LOGOS BECAME FLESH.

The LOGOS is the same person as Jesus. They're not two different people.

we're talking about the Holy Babe, who was born of Mary ...

Yes, that's the LOGOS.

the Holy Spirit playing the role of His father ... at a definite point in time!

The Holy Spirit is not nor played the role of Jesus' Father.

That's the Father.

Remember reading the Father in the OT and NT, when He said: "TODAY I have begotten You."

The instance in the Old Testament isn't strictly prophecy. It's part of a Psalm, if I remember correctly.

The instance in the New Testament is the author of Hebrews asking a question, not making a statement.

Either way, "begotten" doesn't mean what you seemingly want it to mean.

<<.>> T'was in the manger.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

He was speaking of His long-awaited Messiah (Christ). Kapishe-ola?

Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[Clete]

Ohhhh, I didn't realize that Jesus Christ, who was fully man,
was in heaven with the Father before the Incarnation!

You are a truly idiotic waste of time. Good bye!

 

[Lon]

Ahhh, so ... Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God,
was in heaven prior to the Incarnation, was He?
No, No ... Jesus Christ, fully man, wasn't born until the Incarnation!

We're NOT talking about the Word, the Logos ...
we're talking about the Holy Babe, who was born of Mary ...
the Holy Spirit playing the role of His father ... at a definite point in time!
Remember reading the Father in the OT and NT, when He said:
"TODAY I have begotten You." <<.>> T'was in the manger.
He was speaking of His long-awaited Messiah (Christ).
Kapishe-ola?

See here the difference between Dyophysitism and Miaphysitism

 

[Nick M]

18 Then Moses said, “I pray, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.” 20 He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “Indeed, there is a place by Me. You must stand on the rock. 22 While My glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft of the rock and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you will see My back, but My face may not be seen.”

Paul, who received his lesson directly from God after he took on human form said this;

15 He is the image of the invisible God and the firstborn of every creature.

And Paul to this to the Proselytes of Israel in Rome this;

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Connecting these dots gives an obvious conclusion.

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Father who is Spirit cannot be seen. The Son took on physical manifestation at times to be seen. Yet said you can't see my face and live. Therefore, the Son has always existed, exactly as scripture explicitly states in other places.

 

[Nick M]

Yes He was.

The LOGOS became flesh.

That's literally what "incarnation" means!

HE BECAME A MAN!

The creed of the Cathlolics isn't all wrong.

 

[Dougcho]

Yes. BEFORE He became a man, He was in heaven, fully God. He didn't have the name Jesus yet. He was known as the Word.

All I've ever been saying is that ...
since Jesus Christ was human as well as God,
He wasn't in heaven prior to da Incarnation.
For the 1000th time ... do you understand?