Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

[SaulToPaul 2]

Now...
Prepare for 18 pounds of theological gobbledygook as a defense by the settled theists.

God didn't command them to do it.
God didn't say that they should do it.
God didn't think that they should do it.

In other words, it was their own idea.

:rapture:

 

[tetelestai]

That isn't true. AMR has his own website and own following that would all have to change. AMR has as much if not more invested in his beliefs as I do I. And I am sure he would confirm this for you if you just asked.

That is what I meant, I shouldn't have placed it after the sentence I did. What I meant was that he is as waist deep in Calvinism as you are in open theism.

How do you answer a question like that?

Well speaking of AMR, here is what he once said. I have to paraphrase, so I hope I don’t misrepresent him:

He said that he does his best to leave his presuppositions at the door in his quest to develop a systematic theology. In his attempt to bridge the gap of implicit doctrine with explicit doctrine he searches for answers by participating in dialogue with “masters” of other doctrines, denominations and beliefs then of his own belief.

He then went on to say that up to this point he is not convinced by any of the other doctrines and that Calvinism is what he believes is true.

Now, this is probably what you and me, and most others would say they do. And, TOL is a fantastic place to do this.

However, the million dollar question is how do we leave these presuppositions at the door? I don’t know how to answer that either. I wish I did.

My point is that I believe the “deeper” one is entrenched in a particular doctrine, belief, or denomination, the harder it is. However, if a believer is up to his or her armpits in truth, that would be a good place to be.

It's nothing personal Knight. At this point in my life I don't see open theism as truth, and I know you feel strongly different.

 

[tetelestai]

You must not know Bob very well. Bob is one of the most gracious, friendly guys you will ever meet.

I read his book (The Plot), and I have watched many of his YouTube videos.

Yes, he seems like a very gracious and friendly guy. I'm sure he is a great guy.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God didn't command them to do it.
God didn't say that they should do it.
God didn't think that they should do it.

In other words, it was their own idea.

:rapture:

He said it did not come into His mind that they should do it. You are saying that it WAS in His mind that they would do it.

Bzzzzzz... sorry... can't buy that explanation.

God meant what He said. He even said it twice so we could know He meant it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

He said it did not come into His mind that they should do it. You are saying that it WAS in His mind that they would do it.

Bzzzzzz... sorry... can't buy that explanation.

God meant what He said. He even said it twice so we could know He meant it.

nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

It doesn't say he didn't know they would do it. In the context, he says I didn't command it, I didn't speak it, I didn't even think that they should do it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

My point is that I believe the “deeper” one is entrenched in a particular doctrine, belief, or denomination, the harder it is. However, if a believer is up to his or her armpits in truth, that would be a good place to be.

I think that's true. Which is why most people who have never heard either side of the argument are appalled to find out that such a thing as Calvinism actually exists.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

It doesn't say he didn't know they would do it. In the context, he says I didn't command it, I didn't speak it, I didn't even think that they should do it.

See tetelestai? It doesn't matter how clear the evidence against your position is.... guys like STP and AMR will reject it anyway! :idunno:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

See tetelestai? It doesn't matter how clear the evidence against your position is.... guys like STP and AMR will reject it anyway! :idunno:

I think you're so focused on the "didn't come into my mind" segment, you lose the context of his point. :chuckle:

 

[Delmar]

nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

It doesn't say he didn't know they would do it. In the context, he says I didn't command it, I didn't speak it, I didn't even think that they should do it.

19:5 does not use the term should. It just says "nor did it come into My mind". As in I never even thought of such a thing.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Judges 14:4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

God says He was seeking an occasion, i.e., God was looking for the right moment to interact. Yet the settled theist is forced to believe that is a lie. After all, according to the settled theist God knows all occasions for all of time and has known eternally when He would move (which by the way is impossible for those who believe God is immutable).

Just one (more) of hundreds of clear examples. :thumb:

 

[Delmar]

I think you're so focused on the "didn't come into my mind" segment, you lose the context of his point. :chuckle:

Please explain the point, because I sort of thought that God not conceiving evil, was the point.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I think you're so focused on the "didn't come into my mind" segment, you lose the context of his point. :chuckle:

The verse makes it own context. I don't need to finesse it, I can just take it at face value.

Even your own explanation defeats your theology. If it didn't come into God's mind that they should do it.... then it didn't come into God's mind that that they should do it! There was something NOT in God's mind that came to pass - exhaustive foreknowledge debunked.

 

[tetelestai]

The verse makes it own context. I don't need to finesse it, I can just take it at face value.

Even your own explanation defeats your theology. If it didn't come into God's mind that they should do it.... then it didn't come into God's mind that that they should do it! There was something NOT in God's mind that came to pass - exhaustive foreknowledge debunked.

If God didn't know they were going to do it, why did He command against doing it 800 years before they did it?

(Deut 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

 

[Delmar]

If God didn't know they were going to do it, why did He command against doing it 800 years before they did it?

(Deut 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

800 years before anyone did it? Please show your work.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The verse makes it own context. I don't need to finesse it, I can just take it at face value.

Even your own explanation defeats your theology. If it didn't come into God's mind that they should do it.... then it didn't come into God's mind that that they should do it! There was something NOT in God's mind that came to pass - exhaustive foreknowledge debunked.

Not really. If I walk on the Golden Gate Bridge, I know I can jump off if I want. But, it doesn't come into my mind that I should jump off.

Daniel 11 is the great equalizer, however. Future emotions and future decisions of future people listed in detail thousands of years before they take place.

 

[tetelestai]

800 years before anyone did it? Please show your work.

Written approx. 1400 B.C.

(Deut 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.



Written appox 627 - 585 B.C.

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Deut was written about 800 years before Jeremiah

P.S. I'm still waiting for an open theist to tell me what "an observer of times" is as mentioned in the above Deut 18:10

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The above notion is simply not biblical. It may appeal the "theologians" who enjoy imagining such things but it simply isn't biblical.

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of examples that we can read about in God's word that objectively prove that God doesn't stand outside of time looking at all future events as if they were present events.

Let me give just one such example....

Jeremiah 19:5 “(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’​

God is clearly saying that there was a time (possibly before creation or at some point after creation) where it had not entered God's mind that people would be burning there own children as a sacrifice to a false idol.

Now, either:

A. God does not "see" all events into the future and therefore did not see such an evil being devised.

or...

B. God is lying and all of this was in fact in God's mind for an eternity past.

Now...
Prepare for 18 pounds of theological gobbledygook as a defense by the settled theists.

You posted this knowing full well I have answered it in the past. My, what a provocateur you are, kind sir!

The "did not come into my mind" is not read as a declarative sentence, but as an expression of rebuke. Just as someone would exclaim, "Well, I never thought you would do that!" when confronting outlandish behavior, it does not mean the person (or God) was clueless, just terribly annoyed at the behavior in view, expressing outrage and scandal.

Now that is not 20lbs of theological mumbo-jumbo, just $0.02 of proper grammar instruction. You are reading into the text from a openist presupposition, plain and simple.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Judges 14:4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

God says He was seeking an occasion, i.e., God was looking for the right moment to interact. Yet the settled theist is forced to believe that is a lie. After all, according to the settled theist God knows all occasions for all of time and has known eternally when He would move (which by the way is impossible for those who believe God is immutable).

Just one (more) of hundreds of clear examples. :thumb:

More presuppositional reading into the text. Sampson was a tool, God's tool. The way to read this text is as the HCSB renders it:

His father and mother didn’t realize the Lord was at work in this, creating an opportunity to work against the Philistines, who ruled over Israel at that time.

I could do this all day.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You posted this knowing full well I have answered it in the past. My, what a provocateur you are, kind sir!

The universe (especially the TOL universe) does not revolve around you AMR, I am not compelled by your answer(s). :idunno: (heck I rarely if ever read your posts, no offense)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

More presuppositional reading into the text. Sampson was a tool, God's tool. The way to read this text is as the HCSB renders it:

His father and mother didn’t realize the Lord was at work in this, creating an opportunity to work against the Philistines, who ruled over Israel at that time.

Speaking of tools.

I could do this all day.

What? Give lame answers to arguments that obliterate your position? Why would you want to do that all day?