Door
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Please tell us of one defining moment in your day today, when you hit the mark as perfectly as God.
Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door
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That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Rom. 8:4).
What does “the righteousness of the law fulfilled in us” mean since the presence of the Old Sin Nature in every member of the human race precludes any possibility of fulfilling the Mosaic Law?
Only one Member of the human race ever kept the Law, and that was Jesus Christ. Yet it says right here that the Law can be fulfilled. Is this a contradiction? Definitely not. Then how?
You see, one cannot keep the Law in the power of the Old Sin Nature. The Law can be fulfilled only by means of the filling of the Holy Spirit. So today, we can measure up to the divine standard in exactly the same way that Christ did, through the filling of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit sustained Christ during the entire period of His Incarnation. We know this from Isaiah 42:1 and from passages throughout the New Testament. In Matthew 12:28, Jesus said, “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God … .”
At the same time that Christ was fulfilling the Law, He was controlled by the Spirit, and He produced the characteristics of love, peace, etc., that are seen in Galatians 5:22, 23. When we are controlled by the Holy Spirit, He produces in us the very character of the humanity of Jesus Christ. This is the only way in which we can fulfill the Law. We are not lawless; but we have a new law which was designed for believers in the Church Age — “the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “(Rom .8:2).
I am not disputing this. However, let's not push your logic and say it is a better indicator to be godless and sinful to prove we are saved by grace. We are transformed and should become conformed to the image of Christ. We should not see this as a negative, legalistic thing, but evidence of the Spirit's work in our lives. This should be the normative state of a Christian (I Peter 1:13-16), not the deeds of the flesh like unbelievers (Gal. 5).
In your emphasis to avoid legalism, you also seem to want to avoid godly character and fruit?! Only God can see heart faith (Rom.), but man sees outward things (James). Our outer life should flow out of and be consistent with our inner life. An atheist may have the outside right, but the inside wrong. A true believer should have both right. Why are you against practical Christian living that honors God and is good for us?
Let’s say three guys go to a personal care home on Saturday afternoon to help senior citizens. Of the three, two are believers, and the other is a nonbeliver.
The unbeliever’s deeds mean nothing to God, and do nothing to keep him from going to hell if he were to drop dead.
The first believer is out of fellowship with God (walking in the dark), his deeds also mean nothing to God. His deeds are “dead works”, although the believer does have eternal security.
The second believer is in fellowship with God (walking in the light), filled with the Holy Spirit. His deed are “fruits of the Spirit”, count towards his eternal rewards, and he is contributing to the Body of Christ.
To an outsider watching the three men, they all appear to being doing a really good moral deed.
The following weekend the same three guys go to a strip club to look at nude dancers and drink beers.
The two believers get really drunk, and pay for lap dances with the strippers. The unbeliever does not drink, and does not wish to spend $20 for a lap dance.
To an outsider watching the three men, the unbeliever appears to be the moral one. The two believers are obviously out of fellowship with God, but they have eternal life.
The point is that one cannot tell who is a believer and who is not by moral acts. However, one can tell if someone is filled with the Holy Spirit (walking in the light) or not by outward acts of sinning.
Light is associated with fellowship with God and holiness.
Darkness is associated with sin.
The Pharisees and disciples could do the same outward works before men, but God judged the heart motives that made the difference between praiseworthy or blameworthy.
Darkness is associated with sin.
The Pharisees and disciples could do the same outward works before men, but God judged the heart motives that made the difference between praiseworthy or blameworthy.
Is he saying there is a difference between relationship (married) and fellowship (intimacy)? This debate is getting confusing. Are you saying there is a difference between married with fellowship (light) and divorced (darness) with no relationship?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Yes.
No.
The powers of darkness took control of human nature when Adam fell.
No. Man has no free will to escape bondage to darkness and sin that resulted from the original sin of Adam.
No.
One is either held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil ("darkness") or one is born again by the Holy Spirit; transferred from death to life; from darkness to light.
One's actions reflect whether one has been saved by God to spiritual life or not.
One's actions do not determine or achieve, but merely evidence new spiritual life, worked by the regenerating powers of God.
Amen.
Such salvation according to grace, not by works of any kind . . .
Nang
Door
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What??? :bang:
What are you talking about?
This is one of the easiest verses in the Bible.
Look at what John says here...
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
John is telling them to test John. If John is walking in darkness, then he is not in fellowship, and he is not a believer. John is a liar, if he says he is in fellowship and, like the Gnostics, walking in darkness.
being Godless and sinful is not a better indicator that someone is a believer and i fail to see where my logic leads to this conclusion.
the best indicator of all that tells who the true believer is, is how he defines the gospel. another good indicator is how well he takes scripture at face value and believes it, regardless of how others try to make a metaphor or allegory of it. another good indicator is how few times he mentions good works and an act of the will in the same breath.
the best indicator of all that tells who the true believer is, is how he defines the gospel. another good indicator is how well he takes scripture at face value and believes it, regardless of how others try to make a metaphor or allegory of it. another good indicator is how few times he mentions good works and an act of the will in the same breath.
John is saying if we (believers) say that we (believers) have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we (believers) lie, and do not tell the truth.
How can you keep failing to understand this simple verse?
The fact that John is suggesting that a believer could walk in darkness is proof that a believer can walk in darkness.
According to you, this is how the verse needs to be written:
If they (unbelievers) say that they(unbelievers) have fellowship with Him, and they(unbelievers) walk in darkness, then they(unbelievers) lie, and do not tell the truth.
If that is how it would have been written, then I would agree with you, but that is not how it is written.
Door
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Darkness and light is compared only as those who are lost, and those who are saved. Do a word study.
I provided most of the verses in our debate.
Door
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How can you?
John does not say that believers can walk in darkness. You are making it up.
John is saying that if they SAY they are in fellowship, and they are walking in darkness, then they are lying. It is evidence that they would not be believers.
John does not say that. You want it to, but is does not. YOU cannot see what John is saying because you are walking in darkness.
Show me where the word "THEY" is
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (KJV)
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; (NASB)
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. (NIV)
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Impossible.
Christians might spiritually stumble and sin, but they do not function in spiritual darkness, for the light of God has been instilled into their souls through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ.
"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are you light in the Lord: walk as
children of light." Ephesians 5:8
Nang
Door
New member
I have never in my life ever encountered anyone as stupid as you.
I am speaking of the "we" in the verse.
I am speaking to YOU about the WE, and referring to the WE as THEY so you know who I am talking about.
:sigh:
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