Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[tetelestai]

Who have I forgot?

Knight, Nang, and Clete

 

[godrulz]

Not at all.

Some believers fall out of fellowship with God and never return to “walking in the



The answer is temporal fellowship with God. Some walk in the light more often than others (the bottom circle), are filled with the Holy Spirit more often, and know how to go from carnality to spirituality.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny. You are making works and stewardship issues a destiny issue.

Works and service determine degree of rewards. An apostate or someone who falls away is an unbeliever by definition. It is not a matter of losing rewards alone, but a destiny issue since it is in the faith vs works category. An apostate is not just an unfruitful Christian, but one who denies the very person and work of Christ even though they once embraced it (Heb. 6:4-6 apart from bias, if you read these descriptions in another context, most would say they describe a true believer, not a sinner...the verse then warns these believers to not fall away lest they be eternally cut off by rejecting the only provision for eternal life).

 

[godrulz]

It really cracks me up when people say they are putting so and so on their ignore list.

If someone does put so and so on ignore, why do they feel the need to announce it to everyone. Why can’t they just send a PM to the person they wish to ignore telling them they are being put on ignore?

Mature people work through their differences and dialogue to gain understanding or impart understanding (win-win). Babies take their marbles, quit the game, pout, and go home with a tantrum (lose-lose situation).

 

[godrulz]

Knight, Nang, and Clete

Knight disappointed me in relegating me to the Pharisee dust heap.

Nang may consider me a bro in Christ as does Clete. I respect these 3 people and consider them fellow believers whether they reciprocate or not or whether they are 'nice' to me or not (I do not hold it against them that they do not agree with everything I say....I don't even agree with everything I say! All is fair in love and war).

 

[godrulz]

Probably the reason there is so much confusion is no one is in agreement as to who the letter is addressed to.

Jerry Shugart said:


Door said:


Tetelestai said:


Choleric said:


Godrulz said:


Jahdal said:


Voltaire said:



DaSaint said:


JCWR said:


student ad x said:


:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:

What is even more ridiculous is some will determine one's heaven vs hell destiny based on sincere convictions about this verse. Whether it applies to believers or unbelievers or both is not tantamount to rejecting the person and work of Christ/gospel. The different views show that the context may shift between believer/unbeliever, so proof texting must be avoided in favor of careful exegesis.

 

[voltaire]

Post 270 By Godrulz

Post 270 By Godrulz

godrulz, you totally missed STPs point. he was trying to undermine your assertion that Godly behavior is the evidence your saved and in fellowship with God. he made the point that many atheist are more moral than many christians and so he says what is your point? he was showing how ridiculous your claim was that the evidence of fellowship with God was moral behavior. the fact that you see an evil calvinist behind every bush led you to misunderstand his point and go off on a anti calvinist anti POTS rant.

 

[godrulz]

godrulz, you totally missed STPs point. he was trying to undermine your assertion that Godly behavior is the evidence your saved and in fellowship with God. he made the point that many atheist are more moral than many christians and so he says what is your point? he was showing how ridiculous your claim was that the evidence of fellowship with God was moral behavior. the fact that you see an evil calvinist behind every bush led you to misunderstand his point and go off on a anti calvinist anti POTS rant.

I confirmed my agreement with his point by illustrating that some atheists and Mormons live better lives than Christians. This is still no excuse for Christians to live fleshly lives in light of His indwelling Spirit. Don't confuse justification and sanctification issues (I don't).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I confirmed my agreement with his point by illustrating that some atheists and Mormons live better lives than Christians. This is still no excuse for Christians to live fleshly lives in light of His indwelling Spirit. Don't confuse justification and sanctification issues (I don't).

Ok, I was just trying to figure out where you were going with this.

Originally Posted by godrulz
If they are not saved, their lives are evidence of this.

 

[Lighthouse]

Since all you ever do is tell people they are wrong, yet never elaborate as to why, I suggest you start here.

Explain why a believer confessing his or her sins as described in 1 John 1:9 is wrong.

Go ahead, I’m all ears.

First off, in verse three, it is clear that John is speaking to someone other than Christians. The "we" in verse 3 is Christians. The "you" is non-Christians.

However, the "we" in verse 9 is all encompassing, in that it was true for the Christians when they came to Christ, and it is true for the non-Christians, that they will be cleansed when they come to Christ.

Also, this is the only verse in the entire Bible that says to confess your sins, and you will be cleansed from all unrighteousness. That is because it is a one time thing.

 

[Door]

How come when the Sadducees and Pharisees twisted scripture Jesus didn’t call them names and tell them to go to hell?

He did call them names, but He's still a better man than I am.

 

[Da'Saint]

He did call them names, but He's still a better man than I am.

Didn't Christ refer to them as hypocrites, sons of the devil, serpants, generation of vipers, etc. etc,?:think:

 

[Lighthouse]

He did call them names, but He's still a better man than I am.

I can't beleive He said that.

Although, he's right that Jesus never told them to go to Hell. He called them sons of Hell, instead.

 

[Da'Saint]

1Jo 1:5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Then later in chapter 4 John says:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God.

Now, if "in him is no darkness at all" and those who "confess that Jesus is the Son of God" (I assume these would be christians), "God abideth in him" God dwells in us, "and he in God." So the christian, who dwells in God, where there is no darkness at all! (agree?) Then who are the ones who are "walking in darkness"?

 

[kmoney]

Hi voltaire,

No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

John was already saved when he wrote these words:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

In His grace,
Jerry

Could he have been talking about things that happened in the past?

 

[Door]

1Jo 1:5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Then later in chapter 4 John says:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God.

Now, if "in him is no darkness at all" and those who "confess that Jesus is the Son of God" (I assume these would be christians), "God abideth in him" God dwells in us, "and he in God." So the christian, who dwells in God, where there is no darkness at all! (agree?) Then who are the ones who are "walking in darkness"?

According to Jerry and tetelestai, that would be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[tetelestai]

1Jo 1:5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Then later in chapter 4 John says:

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God.

Now, if "in him is no darkness at all" and those who "confess that Jesus is the Son of God" (I assume these would be christians), "God abideth in him" God dwells in us, "and he in God." So the christian, who dwells in God, where there is no darkness at all! (agree?) Then who are the ones who are "walking in darkness"?

The letter from John is about a believers walk, or temporal fellowship with God. You keep confusing the permanent position a believer has with God (eternal security) with the temporal fellowship a believer has with God.

I tried to give an analogy with the top circle and the bottom circle to show you the difference, but you still don’t get it.

What you (and the others) are doing is no different than someone who takes Mosaic doctrine and tries to apply it to Church Age doctrine.

1 John 1 is to the believer, thus the doctrine is for the bottom circle (temporal fellowship), not the top circle (eternal security)

If you read the parable of the 10 virgins in Mathew 25 it will help to better understand this.

 

[tetelestai]

Also, this is the only verse in the entire Bible that says to confess your sins, and you will be cleansed from all unrighteousness. That is because it is a one time thing.

When does this one time act of confessing one's sins take place? At salvation?

 

[Door]

Da'Saint understands the Bible just fine. What no one can possibly understand is how you (and the other moron) can possibly believe that darkness and light can dwell in the same Body.

 

[Da'Saint]

The letter from John is about a believers walk, or temporal fellowship with God. You keep confusing the permanent position a believer has with God (eternal security) with the temporal fellowship a believer has with God.

I tried to give an analogy with the top circle and the bottom circle to show you the difference, but you still don’t get it.

What you (and the others) are doing is no different than someone who takes Mosaic doctrine and tries to apply it to Church Age doctrine.

1 John 1 is to the believer, thus the doctrine is for the bottom circle (temporal fellowship), not the top circle (eternal security)

If you read the parable of the 10 virgins in Mathew 25 it will help to better understand this.

As for the ten virgins, this is a good description!

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/parables/parable-of-the-ten-virgins

Was this directed to christians?

1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Who is the "he" in this verse? Is there any darkness in him? If not, then there is no darkness in christians either! :bang:

 

[tetelestai]

Da'Saint understands the Bible just fine. What no one can possibly understand is how you (and the other moron) can possibly believe that darkness and light can dwell in the same Body.

Darkness = the old sin nature

Light = Holy Spirit

Both of these are in your one body. Both of these wrestle for control of your soul. Through free volition you choose between one or the other. At any given moment in time you are walking in the light, or you are walking in the dark. When in the act of sinning, you are walking in darkness.

Your permanent, sealed, eternal security in the Body of Christ is never in darkness, but in light forever through Jesus Christ, The Light. Your sins have been paid for by Him, you will never be judged for those sins, He paid the price for you.