Disconnect between theology and behavior?

[Lon]

Martin Luther said to 'sin boldly' from the context of full forgiveness in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a comfort in being under the blood, knowing that the Father sees us, completely in Him.

I used to have my Sunday School class draw a self portrait then take a red crayon and color it with marks for every sin they can remember in their lives. Then I use a sheet of clear red plastic (from the gift wrap in most stores). The colors of red completely disappear and all that is seen is the blood.

The Apostle Paul, in Galatians 5:1 insists we live in the freedom we have in Christ, forbidding us to go back to any sort of bondage.

This thread is not about bondage or cleaner rats (as John W has said). It is about a noticeable disconnect between an Open paradigm of a 'loving relational God' vs. what effect that relationship has upon those in His grace.

Galatians 5:¹³ You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh^[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. ¹⁴ For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

I've seen so many abused, who disagree with Open Theism. Dr. Joe Aldrich, one of my professors, used to say "People do not care what you know, unless they know you care." The idea came from Jesus words to the Samaritan woman "Those who worship, must worship Him in spirit and truth."

Here the Apostle says to 'love one another' in freedom. The vast majority of Christianity are not Open Theism. A dividing line between Open Theism and the rest of Christendom is stark. Further, there is a genuine attack from Open Theism upon the rest of Christendom. Is it the decided posture of Open Theists, that attack as well as 'well at least I'm not a Calvinist' (there aren't many of those either) or 'at least I'm not influenced by Greeks?' It is an identity from a void. Moreover, it will never win anybody to Open Theism.

The oddest thing I see, after almost 20 years on TOL, is that there is a disconnect from the Open View of a loving relational God, and the approach of mean-spirited smack.

Doesn't an emphasized paradigm of God's love suggest that love is esteemed not only in God, but in the very people emphasizing it? Maybe not, but how is it possible, for some of these, who I've witnessed for 20 years, not grow an iota, seemingly, in love and grace?

The Apostle Paul continued:
Galatians 5:¹³ You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh^[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. ¹⁴ For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ¹⁷ For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever^[c] you want. ¹⁸ But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. ¹⁹ The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; ²⁰ idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions ²¹ and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. ²⁴ Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. ²⁵ Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. ²⁶ Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

1 Peter 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

I am constantly trying to do better. God has called us to humble, gentle, and loving representation of Him. I've rarely, if ever, seen an Open Theist engage this call in admonishment/encouragement to one another. On a 'smack' site, even less. How could I ever follow Open Theism? I'd have to do so in the closet, the very smack of it seems to have no echo in the scriptures. The Apostle Paul opposed Peter, but it seemed it unified them, not drove them apart. When Barnabas and Paul had a rift of John Mark, later the Apostle said of Mark "There is no one like him, to help me."

Any input to help me reconcile the phenomena is appreciated. In Him -Lon

 

[Tambora]

Hi Lon!

I saw a link to this thread in another thread so i stopped by to take a peek.

There is another perspective of "love your neighbor as yourself".
One way I would love myself is to not ask myself to be a doormat for abuse, and I certainly wouldn't ask anyone else to be a doormat for abuse.

Soooooo, I'm gonna love my neighbor as I would love myself and not be a doormat to any abuse they fling at me.
Sometimes that might be accomplished by acting like their abuse means nothing and is irrelevant and keep trying to have a civil discussion on the topic.
Sometimes that might be accomplished by smacking them.

What to do in any given situation depends on which time it is.
It don't think it has to only be one way for all times.

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[Lon]

Thank you for your response. Seldom do I get Open Theists to interact with these important questions. It isn't that I'm trying to be "a cleaner rat" -John W, it is that the scriptures call us to holiness, gentleness. Paul contrasts fruit of the flesh vs. fruit of the Spirit at the end of Galatians 5. There is a noted contrast.

Hi Lon!

I saw a link to this thread in another thread so i stopped by to take a peek.

There is another perspective of "love your neighbor as yourself".
One way I would love myself is to not ask myself to be a doormat for abuse, and I certainly wouldn't ask anyone else to be a doormat for abuse.

Soooooo, I'm gonna love my neighbor as I would love myself and not be a doormat to any abuse they fling at me.

Remember this verse? Matthew 5:39 Often, the first response is 'not for the church,' simply by virtue of its location, yet it fleshes out 'gentle' Matthew 10:16-33

Sometimes that might be accomplished by acting like their abuse means nothing and is irrelevant and keep trying to have a civil discussion on the topic.
Sometimes that might be accomplished by smacking them.

Of course we are on the same page. As a father I have had to put my foot down. In our culture, it is appropriate, like here in this thread, to call inappropriate behavior on the carpet. I often pray how best to approach the person. A few of them I've placed on ignore. It seems the best approach. I also try the 'gentle answer' to turn away wrath as well as trying to ignore poor comments (in agreement and practice with you).

What to do in any given situation depends on which time it is.
It don't think it has to only be one way for all times.

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

The Lord Jesus Christ told us that all of the scriptures hang upon loving God, and loving man. There is often a needed contrast between the two. We 'needed' to be involved in WWII. We need police, etc. Between abusive and Geneva convention, the humane treatment of prisoners is, I believe, necessarily our Christian position. There is a need to arrest/take captive, but also a need to behave to our calling.

So, on all of this, I'm in agreement. I placed the conversation here in Open Theism, because over the 20 years I've been here, there is a huge disconnect between some Open Theists, and a 'loving relational' God emphasized in paradigm. Between you and I? Disagreement, but a love in Christ shared. There are a few here, I pray for often, but keep on ignore, or remember them as they've been banned. Most conflict goes in moderated favor of Open/MAD members and I appreciate that, but it'd seem, unwittingly, that such also promoted the poor behavior over fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Bob Enyart]

Thanks Lon, and Tambora. Good points both of you! And I too (though I'm sure I've been as fiesty as anyone else) appreciate the civil conversation, but far more so when it's civil and honest.

 

[Lon]

Thanks Lon, and Tambora. Good points both of you! And I too (though I'm sure I've been as fiesty as anyone else) appreciate the civil conversation, but far more so when it's civil and honest.

The idea came from Jesus words to the Samaritan woman "Those who worship, must worship Him in spirit and truth."

Thank you too. There is plenty to go around and I'm first in wanting to grow more like Our Savior, leaving the flesh far behind. Part of what prompted this was a series of posts from Knight calling for, I think, an honor of scriptures as the above. His posts were obscure to perhaps most, but there was a tenor he desired and I've taken the call to heart. It may seem I'm fairly tame, but it is for people like the Apostle and Knight, that I've ever endeavored to be peaceable and loving. Certainly Jesus' words echo your's here: Spirit AND Truth. In HIm -Lon

On TOL, I've not seen anything harsh from you.

 

[Tambora]

I tend to believe that all in the following is fruit of the Spirit.

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.​

I also tend to believe that figuring out which time it is requires wisdom to balance it properly.


One of my favorite characters in scripture is Elisha, the successor of Elijah.
He was bold and didn't mess around.

He was bold enough to request a double portion of the Spirit Elijah had, and he got it! (2 Kings 2)

Here's one of the first things he did with his double portion of the Spirit.

2 Kings 2
(23) And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
(24) And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.​

If you were to read what he did to someone in today's overly sensitive society they would call him a mean spirited wicked child abuser.


And of course many like to call GOD a big ol' meanie.
Rather than try to make excuses for what GOD does at times, I have gotten to the point that when someone calls GOD a meanie I just reply with:
"Yes siree, GOD is the biggest baddest Leroy Brown in town and you best not piss Him off."



Might be a good time for a refresher course on that Bob Enyart Nicer Than God article.
https://kgov.com/nicer-than-God

Because one can just as easily go overboard with pacifism and tolerance as others go overboard with the tough guy act.

 

[Lon]

I tend to believe that all in the following is fruit of the Spirit.

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.​

I also tend to believe that figuring out which time it is requires wisdom to balance it properly.


One of my favorite characters in scripture is Elisha, the successor of Elijah.
He was bold and didn't mess around.

He was bold enough to request a double portion of the Spirit Elijah had, and he got it! (2 Kings 2)

Here's one of the first things he did with his double portion of the Spirit.

2 Kings 2
(23) And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
(24) And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.​

If you were to read what he did to someone in today's overly sensitive society they would call him a mean spirited wicked child abuser.


And of course many like to call GOD a big ol' meanie.
Rather than try to make excuses for what GOD does at times, I have gotten to the point that when someone calls GOD a meanie I just reply with:
"Yes siree, GOD is the biggest baddest Leroy Brown in town and you best not piss Him off."



Might be a good time for a refresher course on that Bob Enyart Nicer Than God article.
https://kgov.com/nicer-than-God

Because one can just as easily go overboard with pacifism and tolerance as others go overboard with the tough guy act.

You have to carefully apply story. What we read is 'just what was.' It is never a license to 'go and do likewise' lest we take a poorly habit from one of His saints.
Romans 12:18 on the other hand, is clear and a directive. I ever caution against using the O.T. for behavior. The Lord Jesus Christ, and many occasions raised the bar. So while Elisha is a great example, he was living in an age where barbarism was the rule of the land. In a word? It is time to be 'as nice as' God. Luke 6:27

It isn't that I don't wrestle as you with these scriptures, but I do tend to err on the side of 'nicer than God.' Why? Simply because scripture is replete with Matthew 5:39

Matthew 10:16 provides a balance, and so I'm ever looking for it.

When I was 16, I'd just read Matthew 5:39. I have been bullied my whole life. Those kindergarten chairs, my feet wouldn't touch the floor. I had learned to scrap my way through school and I hated it. The kids in the upper grades always came to pick on me because they knew I had a short fuse under injustice and bullying.

In 7th grade, I shot up taller than most of the kids around me and the bullying stopped. Yet, when I turned 16, reading that verse, the NEXT DAY a bully came to fight me for no other reason than his pastime and character. Remembering the verse, I allowed him to pummel me. His buddy went after my cousin and I was glad, because that was my cut-off for pacifism, to protect those around me, but as soon as I dropped my gear, the guy quit.

I asked God 'why?' "Wouldn't it have been better to knock him on his pants and tell him I won because of my clean living and love for the Lord Jesus Christ? (At 16, that is how I reasoned with God). Two years later, out of the blue, the guy came and apologized. He'd been in trouble with the law since he was a kid, had been to jail a few times. Perhaps God used this as a genuine turning point in his life. Perhaps that verse wasn't for me, but it was for him. :think: I don't have all the answers. I am feisty and hate abuse having gone through so much of it in my life. I do find, however, that trusting God for things I want to take care of myself, has led to peace and a good frame of mind, even while under injustice.

One more story: I worked my way through Bible College, while saving, I worked for a door plant that built most of the beautiful doors you see on mansions and nice houses, offices, and such. My boss, always down from cocaine the night before would scream at us about our quality. No few times he threatened my job with veins popping out of his head. I simply prayed and asked God to give him a nightmare about what he was doing. Oddly, two days later, he came over to my workbench and told a couple of us about the dream he had had (and people say there is no God????). Honestly, it is better if God does vengeance. He's better at it and it might just turn a dark soul to Him.

Hope some of this is meaningful. -Lon

 

[Tambora]

You have to carefully apply story. What we read is 'just what was.' It is never a license to 'go and do likewise' lest we take a poorly habit from one of His saints.
Romans 12:18 on the other hand, is clear and a directive. I ever caution against using the O.T. for behavior. The Lord Jesus Christ, and many occasions raised the bar. So while Elisha is a great example, he was living in an age where barbarism was the rule of the land. In a word? It is time to be 'as nice as' God. Luke 6:27

We have a very different outlook of the OT.
I do not caution against using the OT for behavior or anything else.

It is in the NT that Jesus and Paul tell us it is the OT scriptures we should be looking to for truth.

Paul says to search the OT scriptures daily to see if what someone is teaching you is the truth or not.

Jesus was constantly saying search the scriptures, it is written, you have heard it said.
Jesus said He did not come to do away with any of the law and the prophets.
Jesus said if you are not convinced by Moses and the prophets then you won't be convinced even if one rose from the dead.
Jesus began with Moses and the prophets when explaining all the things concerning Himself.


So, while some like to cling to one-sided Jesus (the suffering servant), I cling to the Jesus of both sides of the coin (the suffering servant AND the one that's gonna smash heads).
Because, again, there is a time and place for both sides and the OT tells us of both sides of the coin.

 

[Lon]

We have a very different outlook of the OT.
I do not caution against using the OT for behavior or anything else.

You are correct, we do. The O.T. was lowbar. Jesus said the bar was much much higher.
Matthew 5

Spoiler

Matthew 5:²¹ Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

²² But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

²³ Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

²⁴ Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

²⁵ Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

²⁶ Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

²⁷ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

²⁸ But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

²⁹ And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

³⁰ And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

³¹ It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

³² But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

³³ Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

³⁴ But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

³⁵ Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

³⁶ Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

³⁷ But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

³⁸ Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

³⁹ But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

⁴⁰ And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

⁴¹ And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

⁴² Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

⁴³ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

⁴⁴ But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

⁴⁵ That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

⁴⁶ For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

⁴⁷ And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is in the NT that Jesus and Paul tell us it is the OT scriptures we should be looking to for truth.
Paul says to search the OT scriptures daily to see if what someone is teaching you is the truth or not.[/QUOTE]
Which scripture is this from, Tam?

Jesus was constantly saying search the scriptures, it is written, you have heard it said.
Jesus said He did not come to do away with any of the law and the prophets.
Jesus said if you are not convinced by Moses and the prophets then you won't be convinced even if one rose from the dead.
Jesus began with Moses and the prophets when explaining all the things concerning Himself.

Well, not to get too lost in details, I'd said to be careful taking an application from story. We'd never cut down anybody today with a sword, by example. Or drive a tent peg through someone's temple. Or plunge a knife into a fat man's stomach until it reaches his spine etc.

So, while some like to cling to one-sided Jesus (the suffering servant), I cling to the Jesus of both sides of the coin (the suffering servant AND the one that's gonna smash heads).
Because, again, there is a time and place for both sides and the OT tells us of both sides of the coin.

There are things God can and should do, that we should never do. Being like my Heavenly Father doesn't come with no holds barred. Scriptures, especially from Paul, are replete with instruction, as far as it depends upon us, to live at peace with all men. As I said, I have a general agreement with being feisty. Rather, I believe I'm called to be gentle, especially concerning matters of Him. He is incomparably able to right wrongs. While I do defend the helpless and think it necessary, I don't have the same responsibility defending God, because my every breath and strength is drawn from Him.

Also, for this thread, there is a tenor and need to attract people to truth. While there is a need for defense, I think our ban works pretty well for most occasions. We ourselves don't have to get into it tid for tad. Even recently I've seen 'retard, moron,' and etc. The need for that kind of offense? Frivolous and mean-spirited mostly. God cannot be championed upon such basal merits as schoolyard expressions. There is no way to attract anyone in this manner. The Apostle rather became all things to all people, that he might save some and reminded us, as far as it depended upon us, to live peaceably with all men. The call, especially to teachers/preachers, must be taken. He reminds again in another book to correct, with all gentleness, that it might win/save the hearer. It is a bonafide call for purpose and effect. People not only want 'good news' they also need to see the example of it, applied. -Lon

 

[Clete]

There are things God can and should do, that we should never do. Being like my Heavenly Father doesn't come with no holds barred. Scriptures, especially from Paul, are replete with instruction, as far as it depends upon us, to live at peace with all men. As I said, I have a general agreement with being feisty. Rather, I believe I'm called to be gentle, especially concerning matters of Him. He is incomparably able to right wrongs. While I do defend the helpless and think it necessary, I don't have the same responsibility defending God, because my every breath and strength is drawn from Him.

You're called to be more gentle than God, is that your point?

Since I know that you will not respond without insulting me, if at all, I'll state plainly that it is your point, of course, and that you fail just as miserably as you think I do.

The difference is that one of us is hopelessly hypocritical because he is operating from a false premise, that premise being that it is godliness when one attempts to be nicer than God.

As for me, I do not deny that I have wrongly lost my temper from time to time but where you're wrong is in thinking that it is never right to lose one's temper, that it is always wrong to be insulting, sarcastic or otherwise offensive toward others.

Also, for this thread, there is a tenor and need to attract people to truth. While there is a need for defense, I think our ban works pretty well for most occasions. We ourselves don't have to get into it tid for tad. Even recently I've seen 'retard, moron,' and etc. The need for that kind of offense? Frivolous and mean-spirited mostly. God cannot be championed upon such basal merits as schoolyard expressions.

As I said, you're a hypocrite, full of deriding insults such as "mean spirited", "basal" and "schoolyard".

If you don't think that valid, you'd better check your premises.

There is no way to attract anyone in this manner.

Another false premise.

Who said anyone is attempting to attract the fools that mostly populate this website. They are enemies and will be treated as such unless and until I have evidence that they have repented, which I do not expect to see. Not here. People do not come here looking to learn and the exceptions to that general rule are easy to spot and never get anything from me but straight answers and honest questions. It is hypocrites, liars, blasphemers and garden variety fools that don't get along with me and that's only because I'm not afraid to call them out.

The Apostle rather became all things to all people, that he might save some and reminded us, as far as it depended upon us, to live peaceably with all men.

Oh yes! Paul was so non-confrontational that they repeatedly stoned him and eventually threw him in prison and beheaded him.

Everybody just loved him!

The call, especially to teachers/preachers, must be taken. He reminds again in another book to correct, with all gentleness, that it might win/save the hearer. It is a bonafide call for purpose and effect. People not only want 'good news' they also need to see the example of it, applied. -Lon

There is a time and a place for everything, Lon.

Do you know what confirmation bias is? If not, you should look it up because your attitude toward me is seriously screwed by it.

Clete

 

[Tambora]

The O.T. was lowbar.

It cannot possibly be lowbar when it is where Jesus and the apostle Paul said to look.

 

[Clete]

It cannot possibly be lowbar when it is where Jesus and the apostle Paul said to look.

Precisely! As if God's standard of righteousness changed!

I'm just continually baffled by the ridiculous things these people say in defense of their doctrine. They contradict one doctrine in order to defend another and refuse to allowed their own mind to make the connections required to see the contradiction. Nothing seems to matter to them at all in regards to whether their doctrine is coherent even with itself or that it makes any sense whatsoever, for that matter. They believe what they believe and that's it. They don't need a teachers, a preacher, the bible, sound reason or even God Himself, Who is the Source of all those things. They have their doctrine and it seems to require, not that they be blind but that they shut their eyes tightly against the sight of anything that would change one jot or tittle of it.

 

[Tambora]

Precisely! As if God's standard of righteousness changed!

I'm just continually baffled by the ridiculous things these people say in defense of their doctrine. They contradict one doctrine in order to defend another and refuse to allowed their own mind to make the connections required to see the contradiction. Nothing seems to matter to them at all in regards to whether their doctrine is coherent even with itself or that it makes any sense whatsoever, for that matter. They believe what they believe and that's it. They don't need a teachers, a preacher, the bible, sound reason or even God Himself, Who is the Source of all those things. They have their doctrine and it seems to require, not that they be blind but that they shut their eyes tightly against the sight of anything that would change one jot or tittle of it.

You know,Clete, society is turning further and further away from GOD's creative order.
Society tells us that we must be more tolerant and compassionate than GOD towards same sex marriage.
Society tells us that we must accept gender neutrality because that's just more tolerant and compassionate than GOD's creative order.
Killing babies in the womb.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Satan is working overtime and more and more people are giving credence to him.

 

[Clete]

You know,Clete, society is turning further and further away from GOD's creative order.
Society tells us that we must be more tolerant and compassionate than GOD towards same sex marriage.
Society tells us that we must accept gender neutrality because that's just more tolerant and compassionate than GOD's creative order.
Killing babies in the womb.
etc.
etc.
etc.

Satan is working overtime and more and more people are giving credence to him.

Satan is on vacation!

What's Satan got to do around here? Everything is getting done for him and mostly by those elected and otherwise supported by poeple who consider themselves Christians.

You say that society tells us that we must be more tolerant and compassionate (and rightly so) but I hear Lon telling us that!

Don't blame Satan without remembering to blaim Republicans and nicer than God Christians who are doing his work for him.

 

[Tambora]

Satan is on vacation!

What's Satan got to do around here? Everything is getting done for him and mostly by those elected and otherwise supported by poeple who consider themselves Christians.

You say that society tells us that we must be more tolerant and compassionate (and rightly so) but I hear Lon telling us that!

Don't blame Satan without remembering to blaim Republicans and nicer than God Christians who are doing his work for him.

Yeppers.
When he has so many out doing his bidding, he can sit back, relax, and smile.

 

[Lon]

It cannot possibly be lowbar when it is where Jesus and the apostle Paul said to look.

I cannot remember. You are not MAD?

On the O. T. Matthew 22:40? Further, I quoted Mattew 5,6 where the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, says those were low bar. They must necessarily 'have to be.' In Him

 

[Clete]

I cannot remember. You are not MAD?

On the O. T. Matthew 22:40? Further, I quoted Mattew 5,6 where the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, says those were low bar. They must necessarily 'have to be.' In Him

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.

It's sort of stunning the percentage of the time that the passages Lon cites don't say anything that resembles the doctrine he's trying to sell. Maybe that's why he hardly ever bothers to actually quote them.

Maybe he intended to say that he cited the entire Sermon on the Mount (both chapters 5 and 6 of the book of Matthew). That doesn't help him either. Jesus doesn't raise the bar there except perhaps the bar that the Jews had in the own minds, but certainly not the bar that God Himself had set. The bar God had set could not be raised any higher than God had set it. We are told this explicitly by the Apostle Paul in Galatians...

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.​

When it comes to the law, perfection is God's "bar"....

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.​

Only Christ has met that bar and we are righteous only to the extent that we are in Him and thus have had His righteous imputed to us by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

2 Corinthians 5:21​

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

​

Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​

Further, this entire discussion ignores the context of the Sermon on the Mount anyway, which was all about how people are to live during Israel's Kingdom but Lon has no hope of ever seeing that because he refuses to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Acts 26:25 But he said, “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason.​

Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When it comes to the law, perfection is God's "bar"....

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Clete, what does that say about those who teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from keeping the commandments?

Since it takes perfection for anyone to be saved by law keeping then none of those Jews could be saved!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The vast majority of Christianity are not Open Theism. A dividing line between Open Theism and the rest of Christendom is stark. Further, there is a genuine attack from Open Theism upon the rest of Christendom. Is it the decided posture of Open Theists, that attack as well as 'well at least I'm not a Calvinist' (there aren't many of those either) or 'at least I'm not influenced by Greeks?' It is an identity from a void. Moreover, it will never win anybody to Open Theism.

"Open Theism," unlike Calvinism, teaches that all people can believe the gospel and be saved. Calvinism teaches that only some people are given a so-called gift of faith and others do not receive faith. Therefore, only some can be saved and the others are doomed to hell.

That makes God a mad potter who makes some of His vessels with the express purpose of destroying them.

 

[Lon]

That makes God a mad potter who makes some of His vessels with the express purpose of destroying them.

:think:
Interesting YOU chose 'potter.' Read it with me:
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Further:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. (answers some of your question to Clete).
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”


Scripture is scripture is scripture and I will deny none of it/cannot deny any of it. Whatever Paul says and means, I'll not ever argue with Paul. Whatever theology I cling to, it will not be apologizing for Paul. That would be madness. Whatever we believe, it must be embracing Paul. All of him and Him.

You are welcome to explain Romans 9. To date, I simply say "It says what it means (clearly at least to me) and it means what it says (whether I want to agree or not).