Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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beloved57
Well-known member
Now did God ordain some to destruction because of sin ? The answer is by no means, for God is not subject to the actions of His creatures, but His Purpose is the primary cause that some are ordained to destruction, however He decreed sin to enter to serve His purpose. Sin served Gods purpose as it related to the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath ! For all things, to include the actions of His creatures, serve the good pleasure of His will ! Eph 1:5,11
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That is unquestionably true, but being a fool does not require being stupid, nor does it mean that everything an unbeliever says is incorrect or even foolish.
Which is the bigger fool? The one who denies God's existence because of stupid doctrines taught by Calvinists and Catholics or the one who believes that God punishes people forever for no reason and charges God with every manner of evil injustice?
I'd have a very difficult time answering that question with any confidence. Especially if the unbeliever I'm comparing the Calvinist too happened to be Ayn Rand. I've said many times that Rand was the most Christian atheist that ever lived. With a just a few prominent exceptions, her ethics, economics and politics were all at least as conservative as any Christian conservative you've ever met. In fact, every error she did make (and there were some whoppers) had everything to do with the fact that she rejected the existence of God.
It is tragic that a mind like that was sent to Hell because of a rejection of doctrines that the bible doesn't even teach. It just goes to show you that doctrine matters. It really matters a lot because there are people out there who, because of our influence, may either accept or reject God based on the doctrines we claim that the bible teaches.
Resting in Him,
Clete
B57,
I have a serious question for you. I'm not trying to trick you or even to argue with you. I'm really asking and would genuinely appreciate an honest answer.
What is justice?
When you hear of a judgment from a normal human court of law, how do you decide whether that judgment was just or unjust? Or when a parent punishes their children for some wrong doing or rewards them for doing rightly, how do you know a good parent from a bad one?
Is it the parent that sends their child to their room when they talk back the good parent or is it the one who punches the child in the stomach (so as to not leave bruises) for the same offense?
Is it the parent that gives a child anything he asks for the good parent or is it the one who rewards the child when he's done something worthy of being rewarded?
Does the same or at least a similar standard of justice apply to God?
If so, in what way is the God you describe just?
If not, in what way is it meaningful to call the God you describe just and what does it mean when the bible instructs us to be godly?
Resting in Him,
Clete
I have a serious question for you. I'm not trying to trick you or even to argue with you. I'm really asking and would genuinely appreciate an honest answer.
What is justice?
When you hear of a judgment from a normal human court of law, how do you decide whether that judgment was just or unjust? Or when a parent punishes their children for some wrong doing or rewards them for doing rightly, how do you know a good parent from a bad one?
Is it the parent that sends their child to their room when they talk back the good parent or is it the one who punches the child in the stomach (so as to not leave bruises) for the same offense?
Is it the parent that gives a child anything he asks for the good parent or is it the one who rewards the child when he's done something worthy of being rewarded?
Does the same or at least a similar standard of justice apply to God?
If so, in what way is the God you describe just?
If not, in what way is it meaningful to call the God you describe just and what does it mean when the bible instructs us to be godly?
Resting in Him,
Clete
I'm sure you would agree if Ayn rejected the Gospel until she took her last gasp of breath, she, no doubt will stand before God and be judged by her works as Revelation 20:12 speaks of. There will be no mercy at that judgment for the unbelievers. A person doesn't end up in the "Lake of Fire" because of their sins, they wind up there because they rejected the Gospel. This is one of the fundamentals of the faith.
B57 and Nanja are "Hyper-Calvinists" and believe that God creates ALL sin.
Calvinism is a false belief system created by John "The Pope of Geneva" Calvin and his ilk. It's one of Satan's counterfeit religions.
Of course! But puting your faith in a non-existent unjust god will do you no better.
And not everyone's punishment in Hell will be identical....
Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I don't know if it's possible to determine "Degrees" of punishment in the "Lake of Fire?" Where is your undeniable proof? Believe me, when I say, I hope you're correct, but, I highly doubt it. Remember also who was being spoken to, the House of Israel, in those verses you posted.
beloved57
Well-known member
Another scripture that teaches some men were ordained, predestinated to condemnation is Jude 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:
designate, appoint, assign, determine
So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ordained by who ? By the Lord God ! That word ordained means to:
designate, appoint, assign, determine
So God designated them to this condemnation before they were even born. So they were born into the world to suffer this condemnation by the Purpose of God !
beloved57
Well-known member
The condemnation they were ordained to in Jude 1:4 is described in Vs 13 Jude 1:13
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:
a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.
Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal !
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Now some may object to the meaning of the word ordained in Jude 1:4, because the word also means:
a) I write previously (aforetime); I write above (already), (b) I depict or portray openly, (c) I designate beforehand.
Simply to write beforehand . Well, ok then, who was it written by ? Who wrote here Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Obviously names were written in the book of life Rev 20:15, so who wrote them if not God ? Or if we say men wrote of the condemnation of Jude 1:4, it would have been written by inspiration of God, they were moved by the Holy Ghost, who is God, so that which was written was the Mind of God, the Purpose of God, which is Eternal !
Nanja
Well-known member
True, and He even predestinated every word they shall speak, every thought of their mind, and every action they shall ever perfom in the flesh. So they shall be accordingly punished in the Day of Judgment, even to the degree that God has ordained for them according to His Purpose.
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Are you saying that you accept the passage I quoted as proof that Israelites under the previous dispensation will be punished with various degrees of punishment but that it isn't proof that everyone else will be?
The passage conveys a moral principle, not a dispensational distinctive. God is just. A person's punishment will fit their sin. That's all that passage is teaching and that's all I'm suggesting.
B57,
How would you answer if an unbeliever asked you the following questions...
What is justice?
When you hear of a judgment from a normal human court of law, how do you decide whether that judgment was just or unjust? Or when a parent punishes their children for some wrong doing or rewards them for doing rightly, how do you know a good parent from a bad one?
Is it the parent that sends their child to their room when they talk back the good parent or is it the one who punches the child in the stomach (so as to not leave bruises) for the same offense?
Is it the parent that gives a child anything he asks for the good parent or is it the one who rewards the child when he's done something worthy of being rewarded?
Does the same or at least a similar standard of justice apply to God?
If so, in what way is the God you describe just?
If not, in what way is it meaningful to call the God you describe just and what does it mean when the bible instructs us to be godly?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Perhaps it's necessary for you to "break down" that particular passage and examine it a little further? Is it REALLY speaking of "Degrees of Punishment" in the "Lake of Fire" or are you reading that into it? You must also remember, this passage was meant for the House of Israel only not to the Gentiles.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
What if man's sin is worse than he conceives it to be? Is he less responsible because he doesn't understand all the ramifications of it - yet still knows it to be wrong?
Welcome to B57's world of Calvinism !! it's a false world
How does He choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?