Did God become flesh?
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GeoffW
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Spirit or Flesh?
Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.
In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.
On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!
INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.
1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.
Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!
BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.
Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).
Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the
world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him
not."
To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated. Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).
Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary,or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ,through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6. Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, allthings came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.
This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).
"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).
"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).
"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).
"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).
"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).
"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.
Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.
“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.
In the light of this background, it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, and a reason by which he brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who He is.
CLV(John 1:1)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word." 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
:sherlock:oly:
Paul
Hi Pierac.
Thank you!
I have never seen such a succinct statement on the subject.
It's a bit late, but I just thought I'd let you know if you are still around. Besides, it's a chance to show it again in case someone just happens by as I did!
Geoff.
No they weren't.
(Matt 26:53) Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Back then a Roman Legion was about 5,000 - 6,000 men.
So, that's what Jesus meant, not His Disciples.
Who was going to "put the angels at" Christ's disposal?
Not Jesus ...... his God.
The angels are his God's servants, the disciples were Christ's servants.
The Scriptures describe both angels AND saints fighting beside Jesus when he returns;
Ps 149 Praise ye Jehovah. Sing unto Jehovah a new song, and his praise in the assembly of the saints.
2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with timbrel and harp.
4 For Jehovah taketh pleasure in his people: He will beautify the meek with salvation.
5 Let the saints exult in glory: let them sing for joy upon their beds.
6 (Let) the high praises of God (be) in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the nations, and punishments upon the peoples;
8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honor have all his saints. Praise ye Jehovah.
Dan 7:22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Excellent post!Spirit or Flesh?
Many prophecies indicated that the Coming One would arise from the "seed," the stock of humanity, in a particular from Abrahamic and Davidic stock. The Messiah would be from the biological chain within the human family, specifically of Jewish pedigree: "The Lord your God will rise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your own countrymen [literally, brothers]; you shall listen to him" (Deut.18:15). In this passage, Moses predicts that the coming Messiah would be a person "like me," raised up from "among" the people of Israel, and that God would not speak to the people directly, because they were afraid that if God spoke without a mediator they would die (V16). The coming "prophet" would be a man of whom it is said that God would "put his word in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him” (v. 18-19). To say that the Messiah is God Himself is to contradict the whole point of this prophecy. For it announces that the ultimate spokesman for God is expressly not God but a human being. The New Testament says that Jesus is the one who fulfilled this prophecy (Acts 3:22; 7:37). Understandably, no Jew who believe theses Scriptures ever imagined that the baby born in Bethlehem was going to be Jehovah himself come as a human baby.
In addition, Jehovah God says clearly that he is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32). The converse is therefore true: if a person is a man, then he can not be God.
On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!
INCARNA'TION, n. The act of clothing with flesh.
1. The act of assuming flesh, or of taking a human body and the nature of man; as the incarnation of the Son of God.
Can God take on the nature of man? What did Paul say?
Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
However, we know that Jesus was begotten. Yet, not eternally begotten! Which is un-scriptural!
BEGOT', BEGOT'TEN, pp. of get. Procreated; generated.
Now let's look at John 1:10 regarding, the world was made through Him (Jesus).
Joh 1:10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through(dia) Him, and the
world knew Him not." 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him
not."
To be a Christian means you know that our Lord Jesus is the diameter, the purpose of the universe. His kingdom is coming! This is God's purpose and it will not be frustrated. Another verse saying the same thing is Hebrews 1:2. It says God has “appointed” His son to be the “heir of all things” and that it was “through him that he made the world'(s). Here our translations are not quite accurate, what the author wrote was not that through Jesus God made the world(s) but ages. God planned to complete His purpose for all creation through the agency of his son Jesus. The preposition that is used in relation to Jesus and the world, or the ages, is “through” (Greek dia from which you will see comes our English word diameter).
Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary,or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ,through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6. Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, allthings came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.
This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:
"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).
"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).
"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).
"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).
"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).
"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).
"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.
Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father made all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.
“The world was made through him,” i.e. with Christ in mind.
In the light of this background, it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, and a reason by which he brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who He is.
CLV(John 1:1)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word." 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
:sherlock:
Paul
Rosenritter
New member
We are using his actual words, it's your understanding that I don't trust.
Now, can you answer the question I asked? Do you believe that the day and the hour was already determined at that point in time? Yes or no would suffice.
Rosenritter
New member
Does LORD of Hosts count as a name above all names? Because Jesus has been given that name, too.
Psalms 24:7-10 KJV
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Rosenritter
New member
It's written as LORD (all caps) in the King James
Psalms 24:1-10 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(2) For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
(3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
(4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
(5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(6) This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Now if you can answer who ascended the hill of the LORD, and who has stood in his holy place, and who received his blessing from the God of his salvation, who is this King of Glory? It is the LORD of Hosts, Yod Hey Vav Hey, YHWH. That's why Peter placed such emphasis that Jesus (and not David) had ascended to heaven. It identified him as the King of Glory.
Rosenritter
New member
You should tell that to the person who wrote Hebrews.
Rosenritter
New member
Dittos on that, Jacob has been an excellent model of civility.
Rosenritter
New member
Perhaps that it would help if you acknowledged some relevant passages, such as the Psalmist identifying the King of Glory that ascends to heaven with the blessing from the God of his salvation as none other than the LORD of Hosts.
Rosenritter
New member
I hardly think Jesus was saying that he would summon 60,000-72000 human troops.
You will never agree what we have to say.
God the Father if Christ Jesus asked.
His Father
(Rev 1:1) ...He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,...
You said John was Christ Jesus' servant. That's true. Rev 1:1 says that Christ Jesus sent HIS angel to HIS servant John.
That refutes your statement above.
Dan 7 is history.
The four beasts:
Babylon
Persia
Greece
Rome
That's right.
He was referring to angels.
Dartman claimed Jesus was referring to His Disciples when He said "servants".
I didn't translate, I merely quoted. YOU are the one trying to deny what Jesus actually said.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
The day and hour was determined before the beginning of the world.Rosenritter said:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world
No need. Hebrews agrees with the rest of Scripture. Jesus has a God, God doesn't have a God.
Jehovah/YHVH is Christ's God, who anointed Jesus with the oil of gladness above Christ's fellows. People are NOT Jehovah's fellows, but they ARE Jesus' fellows/brothers.
Ps 24 The earth is Jehovah's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of Jehovah? And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto falsehood, and hath not sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive a blessing from Jehovah, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek after him, that seek thy face, (even) Jacob. (Selah)
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors: and the King of glory will come in.
8 Who is the King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; yea, lift them up, ye everlasting doors: and the King of glory will come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, He is the King of glory. (Selah)
Now, who do you think I believe this chapter is about?
Here's a hint, it's actually in the text!
Jesus' Father IS his God .... at least, if you believe Jesus and the apostles;
John 20:17 ... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
2 Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
It doesn't refute Christ's statement. If Jesus had to ask his Father, to send the angels, then it's obvious whose servants they are.[/COLOR said:
At no point have I denied that the angels would have helped Jesus, that is TOTALLY obvious. But it is ALSO totally obvious that the disciples were servants of Christ! AND, it is also totally obvious that they TRIED to help Jesus, but Jesus had NO intentions of thwarting God's will/plan, even though Jesus didn't WANT to go through the suffering;
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
PART of it is history, part of it is still future. The vestiges of Rome are still with us today. Verse 25 discusses the Papacy. The western nations are still governed by Roman style governments. The Holy Roman Empire still is the largest private land owner on the planet.tetelestai said:
It will ONLY be destroyed at Christ's 2nd coming.
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