Did God become flesh?

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Dartman

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I couldn't tell if you were saying yes or no.

So, now that you say you believe Mary was impregnated by the miracle of conception, why would that have been necessary if Jesus was a man like everyone else?

Joseph was a Jew from the tribe of Judah, why didn't God just let Joseph impregnate Mary?
What do you mean by "necessary"?
Jehovah/YHVH God had foretold this miracle ..... so I guess you could say it was "necessary".
If, however, you mean some kind of LOGICAL reason? Then the answer is no .... there is no Scripture that explains any line of LOGIC for the virgin birth.
There IS a logical reason Joseph was NOT the literal genetics that created Jesus. Matt records Joseph's lineage, (since Jewish tradition traced the lineage through the man), and Joseph's line was part of the cursed lineage, that would NOT have produced a King.
 

meshak

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(John 18:36) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

If Jesus was just a man, who were these servants He was talking about?

And, where did those servants live?

His followers. And they are dead now.
 

Dartman

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(John 18:36) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

If Jesus was just a man, who were these servants He was talking about?

And, where did those servants live?
First, who do you THINK Jesus' servants are????
EVERYONE who serves Jesus are "his servants".
The disciples of Jesus were "his servants", and they lived in Israel.
Peter, "a servant" of Jesus, TRIED to fight, but Jesus stopped them, and healed the one he had wounded!!
 

Dartman

Active member
,,,
(Phil 2:6) Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


Putting "being in very nature God" aside (which totally refutes your claim by the way), how could Jesus be equal with God if just a man?
1) You are carefully selecting the MOST trinitarian/oneness biased translation you can find.
2) The rest of Scripture destroys your point.
3) A careful, responsible, UNBIASED examination of the Greek reveals the bias of the translation you are using.
MORPHE means SHAPE.
NT:725
harpagmos
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
 

JudgeRightly

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Then He lied.

No, He did not, this is a straw man that people such as yourself often bring against people like me.

He meant every word that He said, and fully intended to follow through.

But like I said, circumstances changed, and so God did not do that which He said He would do.

:think: Now where have I heard that before...

Tet, if a nation is wicked, and God says that He will destroy it, and remove it from the face of the earth, and tear it down, and then that nation repents, is God obligated to tear down that nation?

Or what if a nation is righteous, and God says that He will grow that nation, bless it, and establish it, and then that nation becomes wicked, is God then obligated to bless it?

I know that He told the truth.

I COMPLETELY AGREE, He told the truth.

Your premise is correct, but your conclusion is in error. He didn't follow through with what He said, because circumstances changed. He is not obligated to destroy a righteous nation, nor is He obligated to build up a wicked one.

As the prophet Jeremiah, writing down God's own words, said:

The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:7-10&version=NKJV
 

Dartman

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ARRRRGGGGGG......... I HATE THAT I HAVE NO ABILITY TO EDIT!!

Here is what I MEANT to post;
1) You are carefully selecting the MOST trinitarian/oneness biased translation you can find.
2) The rest of Scripture destroys your point.
3) A careful, responsible, UNBIASED examination of the Greek reveals the bias of the translation you are using.
MORPHE means SHAPE. Jesus is the exact representation... "express image"... of his God.

harpagmos means ROBBERY. Jesus did NOT consider ROBBING equality with God .... which is why Jesus stated plainly, "my Father is greater than I".

Oh, I know, the pavlovian response is "..... but .. but .... Jesus said "I and my Father are ONE"! ASSUMING eroneously that Jesus meant "one God"...
Which Jesus did NOT say, and Jesus himself destroys the very notion in his prayer to his God;
John 17:20-22 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jesus and his God are one ...... EXACTLY LIKE the believers and God are one! EXACTLY like the believers and Jesus are one!!
 

tetelestai

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But like I said, circumstances changed, and so God did not do that which He said He would do.

No circumstances changed.

Jesus said that because that generation of Jews rejected Him, Jerusalem would be destroyed with not one stone left standing upon another.

(Luke 19:41-44) 1 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”


Nothing changed.

That wicked generation of Jews continued to reject Jesus all the way up to 66AD, when the armies did in fact come, surround the city, and then destroy it with not one stone left standing upon another.

There were no circumstances that changed. Everything played out exactly how Jesus said it would.

:think: Now where have I heard that before...

Tet, if a nation is wicked, and God says that He will destroy it, and remove it from the face of the earth, and tear it down, and then that nation repents, is God obligated to tear down that nation?

They never repented. They not only rejected Him, they killed Him, and then continued to reject Him, and His followers up till 66AD.
 

Pierac

New member
Um....because it does.

(Phil 2:6) Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;


Putting "being in very nature God" aside (which totally refutes your claim by the way), how could Jesus be equal with God if just a man?

How many times do I need to repost this???

Agency

The foundation of our Bible is the OT. It contains the first three-quarters of our Bible. It stands to reason that if we misunderstand this Hebrew foundation then we construct a system of error. The art of successful reading is generally to let the last quarter of a book agree with the first three-quarters. As the grand finale of the Bible, the NT agrees with and is consistent with its OT heritage. It might sound like an over-simplification to say that the Bible is a Hebrew book and must be approached through “Hebrew eyes;” however, it was written within the culture and thought-forms of the Middle East. In order to understand its message we must become familiar with the thought-forms, the idioms, the culture and the customs of those who lived in Biblical times. Every sincere reader of the Bible understands this. Doing it is the challenge.

H. N. Snaith in his book, “The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament,” writes “Christianity itself has tended to suffer from a translation out of the Prophets and into Plato.” (p161) “Our position is that the reinterpretation of Biblical theology in terms of the ideas of the Greek philosophers has been both a widespread throughout the centuries and everywhere destructive to the essence of the Christian faith.” (p187.). Snaith also makes this remark that if his “thesis” is correct:… “then neither Catholic nor Protestant theology is based on Biblical theology. In each case we have a denomination of Christian theology by Greek thought… We hold that there can be no right (theology) until we have come to a clear view of the distinctive ideas of both Old and New Testaments and their differences from the pagan ideas which have so largely dominated Christian thought.” (p188.).

With the passing of many centuries since Scriptures were written much of the original intent has been buried under the accretions of generations of human tradition. According to some scholars a lot of Bible confusion can be cleared up by understanding “The Principle of Agency.”

A common feature of the Hebrew Bible is the concept (some even call it the “law”) of Jewish agency. All Old Testament scholars and commentators recognize that in Jewish custom whenever a superior commissioned an agent to act on his behalf, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in the Encyclopedia of the Jewish religion.
Thus in Hebrew custom whenever an agent was sent to act for his master it was as though that lord himself was acting and speaking. An equivalent in our culture to the Jewish custom of agency would be one who is authorized to act as Power of Attorney, or more strongly one who is given Enduring Power of Attorney. Such an agent has virtually unlimited powers to act on behalf of the one who appointed him.

Let's look at one of the stories in the Old Testament with this new mindset. In the story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3, “who” is it who appears to Moses and talked to him? My answer once was typical of the vast majority in the Church. Of course it was God himself, Yahweh, who spoke to Moses. After all, the text states that “’God’ called to him from the midst of the bush and ‘said’, ‘Moses, Moses!’” (v4).

Verse 6 is even more convincing when the same speaker says, “’I am’ the ‘God’ of your father, ‘the God’ of Abraham, ‘the God’ of Isaac, and ‘the God’ of Jacob.’ Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at ‘God’.” Surely it was Jehovah God himself who appear to Moses and who personally spoke? But what do we make of verse 2 that prefaces this narrative by stating that “’the angel of the LORD’ appeared” to Moses from the midst of the bush? Many scholars have declared this angel to be God himself, even the pre-existing Christ. They make much of the definitive article and point out that this was a particular angel not just any angel.
This is a fancy bit of footwork that disregards the Hebrew text as we shall see. If we turn to the New Testament’s commentary on this incident, we will see how Hebrews understood their own Scriptures.

Let us now turn to answer our question: Who is it who appears to Moses and talks to him? The martyr Stephen was a man “filled with the Holy Spirit.” Let's listen to his commentary on the burning bush incident. He clearly states that it was “an angel who appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush” (Acts 7:30) As Moses approached this phenomenon, “there came the voice of the Lord: I am the God of your father. The Lord said to him, ‘Take off the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. (31-33).

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. The angel of the Lord says, “I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

Let's look at just one more example. In Acts 12, the apostle Peter is in jail about to be executed. But while he was asleep, “behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared, and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter’s side and roused him, saying, ‘Get up quickly.’ And his chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, ‘Gird yourself and put on your sandals… and follow me’” (Acts 12:7-8). Peter thought he was dreaming. As he followed the angel past the guards, out through the iron gate which “opened for them by itself,” Peter “did not know what was being ‘done by the “angel”’ was real, but thought he was seeing a vision”(v.9).

Now the Church was meeting in a house and praying for Peter's release. Peter started banging on the house door and Rhoda, the servant girl went to open the door… Once Peter was eventually inside you can imagine the stir in that place. Peter motions with his hand for everyone to be quiet. He told them his incredible story. And what did he say? “He described to them how ‘the LORD’ had led him out of prison” (v.17).

So who really did get Peter out of jail? The angel or the Lord? The text says both did. But we know that the Lord sent the angel to do the actual work. To the Hebrew mind, it was really the Lord who rescued Peter.

There are many such OT examples. An agent of God is actually referred to as God, or the Lord himself. In Genesis 31:11-13 Jacobs said to his wives, “’The angel’ of God ‘said’ to me in a dream…’I am the God’ of Bethel.” Here is an angel speaking as though he was God Himself. He speaks in the first person: “I am the God of Bethel.” Jacob was comfortable with this concept of agency.

In the next chapter, Jacob wrestled with “a man” until dawn, but he says he had “seen God face to face” (Gen 32:24-30). So was at this time when God appear to Jacob as a man? Perhaps as some have suggested it was actually the Lord Jesus himself, as the second member of the triune God, who wrestled with Jacob.

Not at all according to Hosea 12:3-4 which says, “As a man he [Jacob] struggled with God; he struggled with “the angel” and overcame him. So the one who is called both “a man” and “God” in Genesis is identified as an angel in Hosea. This is a perfect example of Jewish agency where the agent is considered as the principal.

There is another instance of agency in Exodus 7. God tells Moses he will make him “God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet” (Exodus 7:1). Moses is to stand before the king of Egypt with the full authority and backing of heaven itself. Then God says, By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, I will strike the water that is in the Nile with the staff that is in “My hand”, and it shall be turned to blood” (v.17). But observe carefully that just two verses later the LORD says to Moses, “Say to Aaron, take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt… that they may become blood” (v.19). God says He Himself will strike the waters with the staff in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron’s hand that actually held the rod. Aaron is standing as God's agent in the very place of God himself. There is identification of the agent with his Principle. In Biblical terms, Moses and Aaron are “God” (Heb. elohim) to Pharaoh!

Sometimes this concept of agency has caused the translators of our Bible difficulties. The Hebrew word for “God”(elohim) has a wide range of meanings. Depending on context, it can mean the Supreme Deity, or “a god” or “gods” or even “angels” or human “judges.” This difficulty is reflected in verses like Exodus 21:6

The KJV reads… “Then his master shall bring him unto the judges;”
The NIV reads… “then his master must take him before the judges.
But
The NASB reads… “then his master shall bring him to God”
So too the RSV… “then his master shall bring him to God”

Clearly, because the judges of Israel represented God as His agents, they are called “God,” elohim. As the slave gave his vow before these representatives of God, he was in fact making a binding vow before Jehovah. The agents were as God.

Another example that we have time for in this brief overview, is in Judges 6:11-22. “The angel of the LORD came and sat under the oak tree while Gideon was threshing wheat”. As ‘the angel of the LORD appeared to him,’ he greeted Gideon with the words, “The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior.” We can hear Gideon's disbelief when he says to the angel, “Oh my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us?” Now notice a change in the text at Judges 6:14: “And the LORD looked at him and said, ‘Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have not I sent you?” At this point Gideon murmurs and throws up excuses as to why he could not rescue Israel from their enemies. “But the LORD said to him, ‘Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat Midian as one man.’” Notice how the angel who is speaking on God's behalf actually uses the first person personal pronoun. And the text clearly says that when the angel looked at Gideon it was God himself who looked at him: And the LORD looked at him.” Gideon is not confused regarding who he is looking at or who is speaking to him. For as “the angel of the LORD vanished from his site,” he exclaimed, “I have seen the angel of the LORD face-to-face.” (V.22). We know that the angel of the LORD is the agent and not literally God, because the Scriptures are absolutely clear that no one has ever seen God himself (John 1:18; 1 Tim 6:16; 1 John 4:12). Many scholars have failed to take this very Hebrew way of looking at things into account. They have literally identified the angel of the LORD with God Himself. All confusion is dissipated when we understand the Jewish law of agency: “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.”

There is one very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3).
Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, “the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."

Knowing this principle helps us with other apparent difficulties, even seeming contradictions through the Scriptures. Lets look at one New Testament example. The story that has created a problem to many minds is the one concerning the healing of the Centurion’s servant. In Matthew's account (Matt 8:5-13), it is the Centurion himself who comes to Jesus and begs him to heal his servant. The Centurion himself says, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering great pain" (v.6).

However, the parallel account in Luke (Luke 7:1-10) states that the Centurion did not personally go and speak to Jesus. He actually sent or commissioned as his agents “some Jewish elders.” These Jewish elders pleaded with Jesus on behalf of the Centurion saying, "He is worthy for you to grant this to him; for he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue" (v.4-5)
So who actually went to Jesus here? Did these gospel writers get confused? Are the detractors perhaps right to say that the Bible is full of errors and contradictions? Not at all! The difficulty is cleared up when we understand the Hebrew mind behind these Scriptures. The answer to who actually stood before Jesus is the elders. They had been sent by the Centurion. Matthew in typical Hebrew idiom has the Centurion himself there and speaking in the first person before Jesus. The agent is as the principal himself.

Jesus claimed to represent God like no other before or after him. He claimed to be the unique spokesman for God his Father and to speak the ultimate words of God. He claimed to act in total accord and harmony with God like no other. He claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ or Messiah, and the agent of the Father. The NT claims that he who sees Jesus sees the Father. He who hears Jesus the Son hears the words of God Himself.

The New Testament puts this theory about the angel of the Lord being Jesus in his preexistence to rest in Hebrews 1: “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son” (v 1-2).
So, the Son of God “did not speak” in the Old Testament days! Back in those days God spoke in various ways and only in “portions,” whether by vision or by prophet or by angel. It is only since Jesus Christ was brought into existence at birth and appeared “in these last days” that we have heard God speak “in his Son.” This is axiomatic. Jesus Christ was not God's messenger before his appearance as a man, born of Mary in history. Look at the scriptures:

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,


Now let's review one last example and look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)

"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? Hence these sayings:

"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent ... I (Jesus) have manifested thy name unto (the disciples) ... Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:3,6,11).

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

Jesus, then, enjoyed a unity of mind and Spirit with the Father, so that he could say, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). For the disciples Jesus was in the place of God; he spoke God's words, proclaimed God's truth, and pronounced His judgements.

Hebrews 1:1 makes more sense now:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (ages).

[The Net bible adds… The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb_11:3 for the same usage.]

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds (ages) were prepared by the word (ρημα G4487) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Jesus had every right to claim to be God because God was in Him doing His works.

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 8:40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.

It not that hard! Believe what Jesus said... He was a man that heard from God John 8:40 he heard what God gave him... rev 1:1
Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

:sherlock::poly:
Paul
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
First, who do you THINK Jesus' servants are????

They weren't on planet earth.

EVERYONE who serves Jesus are "his servants".

Go back to when Jesus said what He said. Where were the servants then?

The disciples of Jesus were "his servants", and they lived in Israel.

LOL....Are you really going to claim that the Disciples and the little flock of followers could have defeated the Jews and the Romans?

Peter, "a servant" of Jesus, TRIED to fight, but Jesus stopped them, and healed the one he had wounded!!

Again: LOL....how far do you think Peter would have gotten against the Jews and Romans?
 

tetelestai

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How many times do I need to repost this???

I couldn't care less how many times you post it, it does absolutely nothing to support your premise.

Do you believe Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and was a virgin when Jesus was born?
 

tetelestai

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(John 14:9) Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
 

john w

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Lord does NOT = God.

Do you think the title "Lord of lords" means "God of Gods"??????

Lord is ANY one who has authority over others. These texts use the same Greek word "kurios";
Acts 16:16-19 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,




Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;




Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.




Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:




Col 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.




1 Peter 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.





You are making a very novice mistake.
The OT records MANY THOUSANDS of "YHVH", God's personal name.
Most translators conform to a man-made convention of REPLACING God's personal name, YHVH, (no matter HOW you pronounce it; Jehovah, Yahweh, Yehovah, etc.), with "LORD".

The ASV sticks to the Hebrew in this case, and thus;
Isa 45:1 Thus saith Jehovah to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him, and I will loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut:


Jesus is NEVER Jehovah/YHVH God. In fact, Jehovah/YHVH God states emphatically that Jesus is Jehovah's SERVANT;


Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.


You lied:

Survey Isaiah 45 KJV

1 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden,
to subdue nations before him;
and I will loose the loins of kings,
to open before him the two leaved gates;
and the gates shall not be shut;
2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight:
I will break in pieces the gates of brass,
and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 and I will give thee the treasures of darkness,
and hidden riches of secret places,
that thou mayest know that I, the Lord,
which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above,
and let the skies pour down righteousness:
let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation,
and let righteousness spring up together;
I the Lord have created it.
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!
Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?
or thy work, He hath no hands?
10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou?
or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,
Ask me of things to come concerning my sons,
and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it:
I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens,
and all their host have I commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness,
and I will direct all his ways:
he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives,
not for price nor reward,
saith the Lord of hosts.

14 Thus saith the Lord,
The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature,
shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine:
they shall come after thee;
in chains they shall come over,
and they shall fall down unto thee,
they shall make supplication unto thee, saying,
Surely God is in thee;
and there is none else,
there is no God.
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself,
O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them:
they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation:
ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens;
God himself that formed the earth and made it;
he hath established it,
he created it not in vain,
he formed it to be inhabited:
I am the Lord; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth:
I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain:
I the Lord speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.

20 Assemble yourselves and come;
draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image,
and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near;
yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time?
who hath told it from that time?
have not I the Lord?
and there is no God else beside me;
a just God and a Saviour;
there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God,
and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself,
the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear
.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength:
even to him shall men come;
and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified,
and shall glory.
_________

To whom must "every knee shall bow," and " every tongue shall swear?"

The Lord....God....Over and over...


5 I am the Lord, and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:

18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens;
God himself that formed the earth and made it;
he hath established it,
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
“And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep. And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!” Matthew 8:24-27 KJV

“And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?” Mark 4:37-41 KJV

"“Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said unto them, Let us go over unto the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy. And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm. And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him. “ Luke 8:22-25 KJV

Compare with Exodus 14:21 KJV–Moses as a “type” of the Lord Jesus Christ:

“And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.” Exodus 14:21 KJV

"“O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever…..He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.” Psalms 107:1 KJV, Psalms 107: 29 KJV.

“He causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.” Psalms 135:7 KJV

________________________________________________________________________________

__________________________________

“But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary. And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear. But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.”Matthew 14:24-32 KJV

“And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them. But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out: For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. And he went up unto them into the ship; and the wind ceased: and they were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure, and wondered.” Mark 6:48-51 KJV

“And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.” John 6:18-19 KJV

Compare with:

“Then Job answered and said, I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?... Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.” Job 9:1-8 KJV

“Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? “ Proverbs 30:4 KJV

I can "tell", and will answer: The Lord Jesus Christ is “his son’s name”, and the Lord Jesus Christ is God. And everyone, one day, will humbled themselves, and will acknowledge this fact, as it is written:

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. “ Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Wow ..... all of your wresting, just to deny what Jesus said.

Just in case you DIDN'T know ...... words have meaning. We are RESPONSIBLE to tell the truth. Jesus told the truth. He SAID ONLY the Father knows ...... that's exactly what he meant.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Translation: I, a deceptive troll, will post verses in isolation, and have not read the OT, much less studied it, so I will just assert, "Well, you deny what Jesus said...."

No, you butchered the meaning, the context, you shill of the devil.


And show some respect, moron-He is the Lord Jesus Christ, not "Jesus," as only His enemies addressed him on earth, in person, in Mt-John, as "Jesus." But, then again, you are His enemy.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus was given power to create all things by His Father. Jesus says He cannot do anything on His own.

His Father is the source of everything about salvation.

Then by the same token the Father cannot do anything on his own either. By your theory the Father wasn't able to create the world and all that was in it, he only had the ability to create a contractor God.

John 5:22 KJV
(22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Psalms 82:1, 8 KJV
(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
(8) Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Revelation 20:12 KJV
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

2 Timothy 4:1 KJV
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

And don't forget that the Father cannot judge the world. But whomever is doing the judging, they are God, no? And Jesus tells us that is himself.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Nope, which explains why God prevented Moses from seeing His face.

The text doesn't state your point. Moses didn't know that his face shone .... that doesn't mean there was nothing unusual that happens.... MOSES is the one who recorded the entire event!! As far as we know, this is the ONLY time man was allowed to see THIS much of Jehovah's physical being!

True. And if their face isn't visible for whatever reason (a curtain, darkness, bandages, etc.)
You are adding "like a normal person". That isn't in the text. It is extremely ABNORMAL to speak "face to face" with God! God isn't often physically/geographically THAT near anyone!
We have absolutely irrefutable proof that Moses would have DIED if he saw Jehovah's face;

Ex 33:17-23 And Jehovah said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken; for thou hast found favor in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, Show me, I pray thee, thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.
21 and Jehovah said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock:
22 and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand until I have passed by:
23 and I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my back; but my face shall not be seen


Ex 34:6-8 And Jehovah passed by before him, and proclaimed, Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness and truth, 7 keeping lovingkindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear (the guilty), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.
8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

.... and that dispels the argument (which I have heard before) that God is by nature invisible... God is by circumstance not seen.

"Spoke face to face as one would a friend" is a phrase that speaks of it being in the normal sense, not some contrived abnormal sense like behind a curtain, hidden in bandages, under the floorboards, or on the other side of two tin cans connected by string.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Of course it is! Look in the Scriptures .... do you see ANY date of birth or death for Melchizedek????

Please respect yourself well enough to avoid dumb answers. "Without beginning or end of days" are not the words of merely saying one's death is unrecorded. We have TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of people whose deaths are not recorded especially in scripture. We don't say that any of those are "without beginning or end of days."
 

Rosenritter

New member
None teach "Jesus Christ is God in the flesh".
Not one Scripture records a teacher preaching the IDEA that "Jesus Christ is God in the flesh" to ANY audience .... EVER!

Which destroys YOUR "Jesus";
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:1 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Really? No passages teach Jesus was God in the flesh?
 
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