Death and how to comfort the family

[WYRose]

Playing the devil's advocate, that was before Jesus Himself ascended to heaven. Couldn't it be the case now, after Jesus's death and resurrection, that there are people in heaven with Jesus now?

No. All the dead are in their graves and all their thoughts have perished so logically no dead person can know they are dead?
The Catholic priest, though a doomed idolater himself, was actually telling the truth about the dead person having to wait for resurrection.
But is that what was really said by a Catholic?

The facts are that through history GOD has slaughtered perhaps a billion people in The Flood, plagues, Egyptians in the Red Sea crossing. These people had one thing in common: they worshipped false gods and idols. The ones who demanded Aaron make the Golden Calf were killed by Moses and then GOD sent a plague to kill many more.

As Armageddon looks likely to kill every Christian and the remnant of the true Jews Jesus will suddenly appear and grab the few Christians and Jews, lift them off Earth, and leave the surviving fighters to be subdued by the angels..
When the battle is over the rapturees will be put down and told the same words as Adam and Eve and Noah heard: Multiply and fill the Earth!
Jesus will then open the graves or recreate any Christian who was burned to dust and give them eternal life on Earth as they died once as believers.
⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
⁵ But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
⁶ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

For 1000 years the rapturees will have lots of babies to fill the earth while all the resurrected will enjoy living a lovely but celibate life and guiding the children. They died once so will live forever on Earth. The survivors of the nations will also live on earth and have babies while apparently living and believing Jesus and GOD.
However many of these and some of the babies of the rapturees will carry the SEED-DNA of fthe serpent of the Garden of Eden and be tempted to sin.
AT the end of the 1000 years Satan and his fallen angels will be released and go around trying to gather human followers. When he has tempted and gathered all the tainted ones GOD will suddenly send fire to destroy them all except Satan who get a lake of fire to himself.
Then the graves of all the other dead are opened and everyone gets to stand before GOD while He recounts their life and decides if they were deliberately evil or had never heard about being good.
The evil ones are those who had access to Bibles or Christian preachers but rejected their message.
The others who never heard of GOD or Jesus but followed pagan practices out of innocence will get a sympathetic hearing.

 

[Lon]

Words are always difficult at such a time. But I'm wondering more if we are giving erroneous comfort?

Are you saying Paul was giving awful advice for comfort that really isn't a comfort? If Paul's words are true, and if they are exclusively true (i.e., such that "your loved one is already with Jesus" is a false hope), then maybe Paul was giving the best we have available to us, even Christians who have that hope. Why is "your loved one will lie in the grave, but be raised at the resurrection" an awful comfort? Isn't it just because we are more used to the other?

He didn't say "at the next funeral." Wait a bit before trying to preach to someone who has lost a loved one? As a believer, I already know my loved one is with the Lord, thus I'm comforted. Having 30 people tell me something I already know on a really hard day? Probably less empathetic on their part. They just are NOT grieving with those who grieve at that point, imho. It is most often said like 'oh well, at least they are in a better place.' Our comfort is absolutely in Jesus Christ and His work. A 'reminder at a funeral' is probably a glib time for it? I think it can be seen so because they definitely don't need the reminder as if "you should not be crying, they are in a better place." Understand?

 

[User Name]

Here it is as explicit as can be: John 3:13 King James Version (KJV)


¹³ And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 2:12, 14; 5:6b, 8
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven...he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter...Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[WYRose]

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 2:12, 14; 5:6b, 8
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven...he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter...Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

So despite Jesus saying he would be dead three days you say he and the thief flew off to heaven?

So tell me why [h=1]Hebrews 11:32-40 New International Version (NIV)[/h]
³² And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets,
³⁹ These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,


If they had not received their rewards by the time Hebrews was written possible 30 years after Jesus returned to heaven why do you say the dead fly off to heaven?
The thief is still in his grave just like Gideon etc.

You are like so many others in these last Days - you take odd verses and fail to understand them or their context.

 

[User Name]

So despite Jesus saying he would be dead three days you say he and the thief flew off to heaven?

You should ask yourself why you reject the crystal clear statement of Jesus to the repentant criminal who was crucified with him, as recorded in Luke 23:43, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." The answer is that you are in error because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (John 11:26). This refers to the fact that although the body may die, the spirit/soul will live on with the Lord. When Jesus and the criminal died on their crosses, they went to paradise together in spirit. As Jesus also said:

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see death.

Here, Jesus is clearly referring not to the death of the physical body--which generally comes upon us all with some exceptions--but to the death of the spirit/soul. And Jesus says that whoever keeps his word will never see that death.

You should also ask yourself why you reject the clear statement of Paul in 2 Cor 2:12-14 that he "knew a man in Christ" (himself) who was "caught up into paradise". Paul states that he "cannot tell" whether he was "in the body" or "out of the body" when this experience happened. In other words, he is claiming that for all he knew it may have been an "out-of-body experience." These are scriptural proofs that the spirit/soul can and will live outside of, or without, the physical body. The resurrection of the physical body is a separate event altogether.

 

[WYRose]

You are full of Babylonian nonsense and know no Bible truth as you just take odd verses out of context instead of reading the entire passage.

However you are welcome to maintain your pagan beliefs.

 

[WYRose]

John 8:51 clearly means that True Christians will be raised immortal.
Even the False Jews who killed Jesus knew that:
8:⁵¹ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

⁵² Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

⁵³ Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

 

[User Name]

John 8:51 clearly means that True Christians will be raised immortal.

The resurrection of the physical body is a separate event altogether.

Once again, you must ask yourself why you reject the clear and unmistakable saying of Jesus to the repentant criminal who was crucified next to him, as recorded in Luke 23:43: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." They died on their crosses and went to paradise in spirit while their bodies were placed in graves.

 

[WYRose]

Once again, you must ask yourself why you reject the clear and unmistakable fact that when Jesus said to the repentant criminal who was crucified next to him, as recorded in Luke 23:43: "I tell you today, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Jesus could not have taken the thief to paradise as Paradise is to be the renewed Earth. Abd as I've said previously, Jesus went into his tomb for three days.They died on their crosses and their bodies were placed in graves.

 

[User Name]

Jesus could not have taken the thief to paradise as Paradise is to be the renewed Earth. Abd as I've said previously, Jesus went into his tomb for three days.They died on their crosses and their bodies were placed in graves.

You persist in rejecting the clear words of Jesus to the repentant criminal who was crucified next to him, as recorded in Luke 23:43: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This is because you deny the existence of the spirit/soul apart from the body and the fact that paradise exists today in the spirit realm.

You accuse me of being "full of Babylonian nonsense and know no Bible truth," but in fact it is you who rejects scriptural truths and the clear words of Jesus himself.

 

[WYRose]

You accuse me of being "full of Babylonian nonsense and know no Bible truth," but in fact it is you who rejects scriptural truths and the clear words of Jesus himself.

Paul wrote about you:
2 Timothy 4:² Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

³ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

⁴ And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[User Name]

Paul wrote about you:

Paul wrote that he was "caught up into paradise," and whether he was "in the body" or "out of the body," Paul states that he "cannot tell." And you reject what Paul wrote.

This thread is about "Death and how to comfort the family," but virtually nothing you have posted to this thread could be viewed as "comforting." You must ask yourself why that is.

 

[WYRose]

I am assuming the people on this forum are adult and can handle truth and reality?
As I posted: ³ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

⁴ And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[User Name]

As I posted: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine...And they shall turn away their ears from the truth

And it is you who has turned away from the truth of Luke 23:43 and 2 Corinthians 2:12-14.

Who are your false teachers that you turned to who deceived you? Name them.

 

[WYRose]

And it is you who has turned away from the truth of Luke 23:43 and 2 Corinthians 2:12-14.

Who are your false teachers that you turned to who deceived you? Name them.

You need to grow up and stop annoying people who can understand the written word.

 

[Derf]

You need to grow up and stop annoying people who can understand the written word.

WYRose User Name
Both of you are bringing up valid points from scripture, but you are not coming to the same conclusions. Can we try to dig into the topic rather than dig into each other?

 

[God's Truth]

A good friend's wife passed away last year. The phrase I heard most during the funeral as the attendees, including her surviving spouse, was some form of "She's in a better place now." She was a believer, so I don't think the phrase was forced, but I've been wondering how valid that phrase is.

Here's my primary scripture reference: [1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Of course we need some context, so here it is:
Paul was answering some question from the Thessalonians who were concerned about the state of those who had already fallen asleep (died)--they were concerned that their loved ones had missed the promised kingdom, it seems.

[1Th 4:13 KJV] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[1Th 4:14 KJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[1Th 4:15 KJV] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The fore-going is certainly a comfort, that those which are asleep will also partake in the Lord's coming, God bringing them with Jesus. This sounds like those "which are asleep" could be with Jesus already. But the remaining verses seem to say something else:

[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:17 KJV] Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The apparent order of events is
1. Jesus descends from heaven with a shout and a trumpet
2. The dead in Christ rise
3. The alive are caught up together with them in the clouds ("them" meaning those that were dead)
4. We meet the Lord Jesus in the air
5. We are never separated from Jesus forever

[1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul tells us to use these words to comfort each other regarding those that have died.

How many of the people at the funeral were comforting the family with these words? I think I was the only one. The pastor talked about a dream he had where he was dead, but was able to see and be among his family, though they couldn't see him. Several talked about the deceased dancing with Jesus.

So my question is, should we be comforting those that have lost loved ones by saying "they are in heaven now" or "they are in a better place" or "their spirits are with Jesus". Paul never said to comfort anyone with those words, though they seem like they would be very comforting, if true.

And if we should not use those words for comfort, is that because those words are not true??

The scripture says Jesus will bring them with him when he comes to raise the dead. Jesus brings the spirits of those who were with him in heaven.

 

[User Name]

WYRose User Name
Both of you are bringing up valid points from scripture, but you are not coming to the same conclusions. Can we try to dig into the topic rather than dig into each other?

"WYRose" is not bringing up valid points from scripture, sorry. She rejects scripture. I've given specific examples.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[God's Truth]

My wife passed away in January 2019. I have been in sorrow for her ever since. The scripture that came to me is in the Psalm of Moses. "The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away" (Ps. 90:10).

I also read years ago a reading called the:

"Storm of Sorrow"

"Into every life some day the tempest of sorrow must come, for sorrow is ever the penalty of love. And if a person loves they will sorrow."

So I asked myself if love worth the sorrow. My heart told me yes.

So sorry to hear about your wife. It is a dread for all humans.