Derf
Well-known member
I’ve brought this topic up before, but I was inspired by a @Bob Enyart radio program to take this alternative approach (though I don’t think Bob agrees with my view). I’m proposing that death is not to be defined as “separation from God”, which is traditionally the Church’s view admittedly, but a complete cessation all function, body, soul, and spirit. Bob’s excellent arguments against traditional theism are equally valid against traditional “deathism”—I think they probably both came from the same source.
Thus, when we will be resurrected, it is a complete miracle: body soul and spirit will be reborn, and that is the great hope of the Christian according to Paul in 1Thess 4:17, 18.
I propose that John 3 shows that Nicodemus was on track with his question about re-entering his mother’s womb, but he didn’t understand what he was saying.
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 (KJV) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
And that’s why he was reproved for being a teacher of Israel and not knowing these things.
Bob did a program recently that touched on the euphemism of Sheol for the womb, and vice versa.
Job 1:21 (KJV) And [Job] said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Psalms 139:13, 15 (KJV) 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. …15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
These 2 passages present Sheol as the womb and the womb as Sheol. Bob suggested that since we are dust, then when we are formed in our mother’s womb, it’s like we are being formed of dust in the dust. That means, it seems, that when we return to dust, we are just as much without life as we were before we were conceived, except for the power of God. And when God explained to Adam that he would DIE if he ate of the wrong tree, he really meant that he would cease to exist—except for the promise of God. That power and promise is why those that died were said to be asleep, and still were when Paul wrote 1st Thessalonians.
And when all are resurrected at the end of the ages, all will be brought back to life, some to eternal life, and some to the second death, defined for us as the lake of fire. The lake of fire is a permanent state, as far as I can tell, and those thrown there are thrown there for the express reason that they rejected the Holy Spirit’s conviction that Jesus is the only path to the Father, which is mankind’s substitute test after we failed the first one in Adam. All of which brings about the purpose of God to have a people that want to fellowship with Him forever—on His terms, since He is able to determine the perfect terms, which we agree with in order not to be blotted out from the Lamb’s book of life (sent to the second death).
Thus, when we will be resurrected, it is a complete miracle: body soul and spirit will be reborn, and that is the great hope of the Christian according to Paul in 1Thess 4:17, 18.
I propose that John 3 shows that Nicodemus was on track with his question about re-entering his mother’s womb, but he didn’t understand what he was saying.
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 (KJV) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
And that’s why he was reproved for being a teacher of Israel and not knowing these things.
Bob did a program recently that touched on the euphemism of Sheol for the womb, and vice versa.
Job 1:21 (KJV) And [Job] said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
Psalms 139:13, 15 (KJV) 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. …15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
These 2 passages present Sheol as the womb and the womb as Sheol. Bob suggested that since we are dust, then when we are formed in our mother’s womb, it’s like we are being formed of dust in the dust. That means, it seems, that when we return to dust, we are just as much without life as we were before we were conceived, except for the power of God. And when God explained to Adam that he would DIE if he ate of the wrong tree, he really meant that he would cease to exist—except for the promise of God. That power and promise is why those that died were said to be asleep, and still were when Paul wrote 1st Thessalonians.
And when all are resurrected at the end of the ages, all will be brought back to life, some to eternal life, and some to the second death, defined for us as the lake of fire. The lake of fire is a permanent state, as far as I can tell, and those thrown there are thrown there for the express reason that they rejected the Holy Spirit’s conviction that Jesus is the only path to the Father, which is mankind’s substitute test after we failed the first one in Adam. All of which brings about the purpose of God to have a people that want to fellowship with Him forever—on His terms, since He is able to determine the perfect terms, which we agree with in order not to be blotted out from the Lamb’s book of life (sent to the second death).
