Dead tiger bigger victim than dead man?

[MindOverMatter]

I like this thread "Growing"!

What are you saying Danny? What does that mean?

 

[zoo22]

I find that ridiculous. If one believes that the tiger had a good reason to attack, then they are a very dangerous person? Please.

And so, are you saying “Please,“ because as a “freedom” loving human, you are of the mind that attacking and killing people for expressing themselves through waving and yelling (freedom of speech) is right?

No, of course not. I am saying "please" because I am of the mind that attacking and killing people for expressing themselves through "waving and yelling" should not be considered the same for tigers as for humans.

Most folks recognize this, although the conclusions they arrive at might differ.

Similarly, it is currently accepted that tigers do not wear pants while in public.

I am also saying "please" as a quiet cry for reason.

Been saying that ZOO:

>>>MindOverMatter Post # 244

>>>MindOverMatter Post #272

Yes, you've been saying quite a lot. Or, well, at least you've been saying it quite a lot.

Your "animals act because of opportunity" premise is flawed. So what's built on that is flawed. Broken. I usually would have a conversation about it, but you stick to your shticks, and plow forward building on faulty foundations. Based on conversations in the past, and knowing the way you cling to base fallacies, there really seems to me very little point in having the discussion with you.

Except when you tell me or others what it is I am saying. I don't much care anymore how you represent yourself (though I'll stop to gawk at the spectacle), but I'll generally respond to your shoving words into my mouth, and your telling me what it is what I'm saying when in fact it is not what I'm saying.

Because you do it so often, we ought to have a long interactive relationship.

But it's absurd not to be able to separate and recognize the differences of an animals intent from a humans intent. Generally speaking, what may be a "reason" for an animal does not apply the same way to a human (vice versa, I suppose). Besides at base (eat, procreate, defend, etc).

And so, what you are saying is that as a “freedom” loving human, you are of the mind that a lower animal that attacks and kills people for expressing themselves through waving and yelling (freedom of speech) is right?

You really like doing that, hmm? Telling people what they're saying. Why?

It seems it'd only take a bit for you to settle back and actually think about what it someone is saying, instead of trying to shove them into some box. But to each. I suppose your misrepresenting "so what you are saying is ____" is a way of engaging people.

And so, no. That's not what I'm saying. Don't be ridiculous.

I am of the mind that "right" is not applicable to tigers the same as it is to humans. Though yes, as I'd said, I believe there is base overlap. Despite that overlap, viewing human reason and morals as applicable to tigers seems fraught with problems. For both humans and tigers.

Also, "freedom of speech?" ... The tiger's attack is a "freedom of speech" issue? Uh... Hmm. I just heard a weird scary noise. Was it me? I don't think so... Wait, I think it may have been the sound of a collective rolling over in the grave of all the forefathers at once.

 

[MindOverMatter]

You're insane. If you got a child that really "loved" its mother and then it mother started not feeding it, not sheltering it, beating it up and getting other people to beat it up, the kids not going to be too fond of the mother any more.

Johana, how about mature adults? How about if you substitute the irrational and immature child with a rational mature adult?

You used to have some ok points and maintain some semblance of rationality but I really think you've lost it...

Well, what points are irrational?

... I was going to point out the obvious in regards to the rest of your post but really what's the point?

The point is that you may actually piece together a reasonable argument that will persuade MOM and others to see things the way that you see them.

 

[Caille]

Just for the record johana, you do put together reasonable arguments and I agree with them. I notice however, that there are others (who shall go unnamed) whose ramblings seem to have the support of no other readers. Funny thing, that.


On an unrelated note, did you know that if you rearrange MindOverMatter, you get Marred Oven Mitt? I didn't.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Not to be too obvious here, but ...Try that with a human. See how they love you.

Oh Zoo, not to be too obvious here, but it has been tried on many numerous occasions. In fact, if you will look around the world, you will still see that it is still tried with humans.

Secondly. why don’t you try to open and study that Bible of yours sometimes. It would greatly help you in your conclusions.

And by the way, not just the parts that you believe are saying things that you like and agree with.

Now, hast thou considered my servant JOB.:guitar:

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

I don't generally equate a human's love with an animal's love.

You shouldn’t equate the love of a highly evolved human with that of a lower animal or beast. There is no comparison because they are not even close to being on the same level.

I don't know how an animal's mind works (I don't know how a human's mind works).

Well, one way that you can find out is to try the little experiment:
First, stop feeding your pet. Don’t feed your pet for a couple of weeks; Secondly, take away its home or kick it out of the house; Thirdly, don’t allow it to have any medicine when it is ill; And lastly, allow it to be constantly hit and abused by you and various other people.

It has been tried with highly evolved humans and they have passed with flying colors. Now why don't you get a lion and try it.

I don't know if they/how they love, and if they do, I don't believe it is the same as a human.

Well, everything loves something. Tigers for example have a lotta love for meat.

But honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see many pets remain more forgiving after being treated that way than a sibling (human) would be.

Well MOM would be surprised if a lower animal or beast had more understanding than a highly developed human. And even if that were the case, then that would mean that that human was not highly developed.

 

[MindOverMatter]

I'm wondering why people are surprised that tigers can get annoyed. BTW, tigers like chasing things. It's fun for them. So once they get out and realize that those bipeds are edible and will run away from them, it's open season.

Then there isn't much hope; they will remember. And probably best destroyed, or at least confined a lot better than this one was. However, the guys taunting the tiger are still to blame, at least in equal measure to the zoo.

How is the blame equal to that of the zoo? How can you blame them equally when:
1. The tiger is in the zoo’s possession.
2. It is stated that the zoo had failed to provide the proper containment.
3. It is known that 20-25 % of zoo visitors taunt the animals.

The young men basically did what 20-25 % of the zoo visitors have done. And so you want to hold them to the same level of responsibility as the zoo?

 

[MindOverMatter]

Is that tiger dead yet? :think: If so, you can lay him over there next to the horse we all rode in on...

:crackup:

Sorry, by all means (or MOM) do continue. :noid:

What, did you finally get him?

Magazine's Noose Cover Reignites 'Lynch Tiger' Controversy

 

[MindOverMatter]

Is there a record for uninterrupted posts in a row by one TOL member? And if so, who holds it? Sorry to break your current attempt MOM. :singer:

Oh, and that tiger...still dead as a doornail.

Don’t know, but is it like bingo and are there prizes to be won?

:BRAVO: :first: :second: :third:

 

[MindOverMatter]

Well, MOM still may hold a highest percentage record.

This is post number 277 on this thread.

49 of those posts belong to MOM...20 more than the next highest poster.

Is that all? Now are you sure? Make sure that you are not trying to short-change ole MOM.

 

[MindOverMatter]

You have a gift of making the simple seem complex.

Now Ktoyou, MOM is gifted but she doesn’t think that even she can make anyone mistake you for being complex. :rotfl:

 

[MindOverMatter]

I'm glad someone other than MindlessMatter posted, but did you have to respond to her?

Just wait till MOM gets around to some of your ludicrous postings.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Good question, yet he (MOM) is so simple and thinks he is so clever, he leaves me laughing!

Ktoyou, why don’t you please step back from the mirror now and see if you will stop laughing? :wave2:

 

[MindOverMatter]

so very sad to think that a mans foolish game ended in his death and the humans who hear of it must debate whether or not he is a victim, or whether his attacker is more a victim than he is.

Hey darling, that is the world that we are currently in. Haven't you heard the good news: Its a dog's world and we're just in it.

we all do stupid things, but when an agency takes responsibility for dangerous animals,and allows the public to come in and view them, they must ensure thier safety.

Agreed

Should we now expect there to be a sign at the gate of the zoo reading, "Enter at your own risk, and for Pete sake, do not provoke the animals!"

Actually, in this day and age that wouldn’t be a bad idea.

I am willing to guess that each one of us has found ourselves up close and personal with an animal who meant to do us some harm and were only shielded by the meager efforts of a thin fence or less. Provoked or not, If that animal gets out and hurts someone, the owner is responsible!

That seems to be what the Bible says.

Exodus 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox [shall be] quit.

Exodus 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Exodus 21:30 If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.

Exodus 21:31 Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.

The funny thing is that a lot of those who label themselves Christian do not agree with this prescription.

 

[MindOverMatter]

OK why don't you send them your ideas on the matter? Perhaps you can help them update their outdated information.

Been trying to but they refuse to listen. Imagine, people who consider themselves rational and intelligent are rejecting new and cogent info. Like that’s never happened before in history. :rotfl:

Well anyway, it appears that many are stuck in their views and have become biased. Hey, that’s life.

 

[MindOverMatter]

It's opportunity driven when a mouse shows up on the scene unannounced. It's not if a cat goes out on a mousing expedition.

Okay. And what is the cat doing when it goes out on a mousing expedition?

Opportunity is not an all inclusive or all encompassing "reason" that animals act.

First Zoo, no one has stated that opportunity by it self is an “all inclusive or all encompassing “reason.” Maybe you did and MOM was not made aware of it. Opportunity is one of the principal reasons.

So, what MOM is stating is that in many situations where there appears to be no cause, opportunity is a principal reason.

Not all dogs will eat all of the food left unattended on a table.

But the majority will. That is unless you throw in a couple of other factors. Wonder what those factors could be Zoo?

Though most want to. Despite the opportunity presented, some will opt out.

Why? Why don’t you tell US all some of the reasons why a dog (or your dog) would not eat all of the food that has been left unattended on a table?

 

[johana]

Johana, how about mature adults? How about if you substitute the irrational and immature child with a rational mature adult?

I'm going to say that they're still not going to be feeling that loving feeling.

Well, what points are irrational?

In this thread? All of the ones that are based on the premise that humans and tigers think in the same way, are subject to the same moral guidelines and reasoning processes.

The point is that you may actually piece together a reasonable argument that will persuade MOM and others to see things the way that you see them.

The thing is, I could throw any number of reasonable arguments at you. I could show you a picture of a tigers brain and a picture of a human brain, explain that the area of the human brain responsible for higher thought isn't as developed in a tiger. I could reference experts, I could bring facts and statistics, history. For what?

You commonly deny any expert opinions claiming that your half-baked ideas trump every known specialist because no one else thinks as well or as clearly as you.
You commonly put words in my mouth or twist the meanings of my posts.
You commonly make absurd arguments to which there is no answer because there's no basis in reality.

There is no convincing you. You're happy to argue in circles and rely on false assertions and twisted logic to back yourself. If there's something wrong with you where you can't see what you're doing then I'm sorry for you. If not - grow up. You're being dishonest, frustrating and irrational.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Look goofball, those biologists know more about their subject than you know about anything.

This must mean that you are privy to what MOM knows.

At best, you are able to follow your own thoughts, not much else.

Better than following your thoughts-- which by the way appears to be the not much else that you are speaking of.

You may impress yourself, but you never have impressed me as being other than a goof.:chew:

And judging from your incessant personal attacks MOM must be doing something.

Secondly, MOM has not seen you debate or refute anything that she has stated. All that you and a couple of the others are able to do is pop up every couple of days and call MOM names. Why don’t you try putting that psychology education of yours to good use?

 

[MindOverMatter]

Opportunity

1. an appropriate or favorable time or occasion: Their meeting afforded an opportunity to exchange views.
2. a situation or condition favorable for attainment of a goal.
3. a good position, chance, or prospect, as for advancement or success.

Opportunity is not a reason. Opportunity gives a window to apply a reason.

Noguru, MOM can’t believe that you actually wrote that. Somebody must be using your screen name? MOM can’t believe that you actually said that “Opportunity is not a reason.” You have got to be kidding?

Anyway, if opportunity is not a reason then you must be of the belief, that without getting out of the enclosure, the tiger would have killed that young man? So question: How does that tiger kill a young man from within his cage without that young man being available?

Second question: Without a casino or a slot machine, how does a person get a chance to win money from a casino and a slot machine?

Third question: Without the lottery being made available, How does a person get a chance to win money from it?

Fourth question: How do you climb a mountain if there is no mountain?

 

[johana]

This must mean that you are privy to what MOM knows.

This is a pretty mild example of part of what I'm talking about.

Are you a biologist? Do you have any specialized training or experience that would mean that your expert opinion would trump that of those who have studied and trained in their field of expertise?

You fall back on - Oh! But I can think better than everybody else!

Outside of being an utterly narcissistic, egocentric world view, it's utterly, utterly wrong. You don't think better than everybody else. Your views, without the experience and training and expert knowledge are nothing but unfounded opinion.

 

[MindOverMatter]

The tiger was acting out of self-defense.

:rotfl: And this is why MOM can’t get the scientist to accept new info. If the tiger was only acting out of self defense, then what is the reason behind its movement at that point in time?

Not reason like in how humans reason, but a reason. Animals have instinctual drives. Certain stimuli trigger behavior that is the result of instinctual drives.

Maybe you need to examine the definition for instinct. >>>INSTINCT

INSTINCT: noun: 1 : a natural or inherent aptitude, impulse, or capacity *had an instinct for the right word*
2 a : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason b : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level

I don't think Einstien's theory of relativity or the first law of thermodynamics applies to this. But I could be wrong.

Could be.