Dead tiger bigger victim than dead man?

Sweet Pea

New member
MOM guesses that for some, we have to justify the act of killing the tiger. Some people believe that it was wrong to kill the tiger. They believe that since the tiger was only doing what it was made to do, it was “innocent.” And if it was “innocent,” then it should not have been held to some set of moral values and killed.

Example 1 with Quote>>> Red Post 110

>>>

I don't think it's a matter of being "innocent", or punishment for a morally-errant tiger. It's a matter of practicality. The humans basically *had* to kill the tiger, because it would have been unethical to allow it to continue at the zoo or any other zoo (even if it wasn't displayed, as it could attack a zookeeper), and also to release it into the wild where it couldn't properly fend for itself. There was really no other solution. I find it sad, but necessary, that the tiger was killed.

~SP
 

Sweet Pea

New member
No one knows why exactly the tiger did what it did? Sweet Pea, question: Would we be having this discussion if the tiger had not escaped from it’s containment?

Nope. The ultimate responsibility for the tragedy is on the humans who didn't properly enclose the animal (and those who taunted it, to a lesser degree).

We have tigers at my local zoo. There is NO WAY anyone could get close enough to taunt them. The places where one could theoretically get close enough are SEALED OFF by large panes of some kind of very tough clear material so that you can still see them but cannot touch them or disturb them. Why this zoo didn't have a similar set-up is beyond me.

~SP
 

Caille

New member
I'd like to see MindOverMatter back up her statement that "Some people believe that it was wrong to kill the tiger." I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that it was wrong to kill the tiger. Many have made the argument that it was unfortunate that the tiger had to be killed.
 

Sweet Pea

New member
I'd like to see MindOverMatter back up her statement that "Some people believe that it was wrong to kill the tiger." I don't think anybody in this thread has stated that it was wrong to kill the tiger. Many have made the argument that it was unfortunate that the tiger had to be killed.

I haven't seen anyone claim it was wrong to kill the tiger. Unfortunate, sad, yes, but not wrong. It had to be done.

~SP
 

MindOverMatter

New member
The object of the lesson is:

Don't harm/taunt a 350 cat that was made to eat people. With A1 Steak Sauce.

…and don’t go around drunk and high. And don’t try to keep a tiger in an inadequate enclosure. And don’t forget that there are risks that are inherent in going to the zoo.
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
I haven't seen anyone claim it was wrong to kill the tiger. Unfortunate, sad, yes, but not wrong. It had to be done.

~SP

I think it was wrong to kill the Tiger!

We (humans) captured this animal, placed it in a cage for our viewing pleasure and then could not live up to the responsibilities of ownership.

And now you are trying to hold this animal to the responsibility of human rules of morality?

The animal was put down out of fear. The fear of, since it has tasted human blood, it is a man eater. Oh so scary! We have an animal that is caged, but, since some fool,

1. Didn't build his cage adequately,

2. Another fool taunted a creature that responds through instinct.

Gets out and kills a human being!

Which leads us to #3,

3. We don't want some one pointing their finger at us and saying that we are responsible for this act due to our irresponsible thinking and planing when taking on the responsibility of animal ownership!

And any one that truly thinks otherwise should direct this Tigers lawyer to the animal court system, so that since we are holding the Tiger to our rules of morality, it should be afforded the same rights to defense that we enjoy, the right to plead our case before a jury of our peers!

Human thought...at times it leaves a lot to be desired!:kookoo:

Grow up and accept the responsibilities of your actions!:idea:
 

Caille

New member
I think it was wrong to kill the Tiger!

The tiger was loose in the zoo and posing a threat to other humans. The police officers that responded had only their regular weapons, not tranquilizer guns. In that scenario, do you still think it was wrong to kill the tiger? If so, what would you have proposed they should have done differently?

And now you are trying to hold this animal to the responsibility of human rules of morality?

Who is doing that? Who, in this thread, has expected the tiger to be a moral being or held to moral standards?

The animal was put down out of fear. The fear of, since it has tasted human blood, it is a man eater.

No, the fear that since the tiger posed a real and present threat, others might be harmed. You seem to be under the impression that the tiger was captured, sequestered in a safe location and then the decision was made to destroy it. Not so.

3. We don't want some one pointing their finger at us and saying that we are responsible for this act due to our irresponsible thinking and planing when taking on the responsibility of animal ownership!

We? We who? Who here has argued that the zoo is without blame in failing their responsibility?

And any one that truly thinks otherwise should direct this Tigers lawyer to the animal court system, so that since we are holding the Tiger to our rules of morality, it should be afforded the same rights to defense that we enjoy, the right to plead our case before a jury of our peers!

Human thought...at times it leaves a lot to be desired!:kookoo:

Grow up and accept the responsibilities of your actions!:idea:

I'm curious to know who this diatribe is directed at?
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
"I'm curious to know who this diatribe is directed at?"

Seems as if you have already answered this question.

You didn't read this post did you, kind of just skimmed over it? Go back and read the thread and I'm sure you can decide who, what, where and when, its not difficult.

"If so, what would you have proposed they should have done differently?"

?? Think??

"The police officers that responded had only their regular weapons, not tranquilizer guns. "

Zoo's have tranquilizer guns and a written assessment of what to do in the case of an animal escape, along with personnel that are trained for this event.

"No, the fear that since the tiger posed a real and present threat, others might be harmed. You seem to be under the impression that the tiger was captured, sequestered in a safe location and then the decision was made to destroy it. Not so."

Yes, that is a correct statement as far as the threat involved is concerned, but one that side steps the ultimate question of responsibility before the fact.

The decision to have the animal was made, the cages have been built, the plans for the unforeseeable events of animal escape laid out, the control of patrons entering an area of potential danger in place, but yet some fool comes in, does something that creates an incident that ends with death and we kill the only creature that responded exactly as it should?

Which of the systems failed?

1. The decision to have a dangerous animal....no!
2. The building of the cage...yes!
3. The plans or animal escape...no!
4. The equipment for animal capture...no!
5. Patron control...yes!
6. A human acting responsibly and not foolishly...yes!

And yet we kill the Tiger!

Where the police acting responsibly? Yes, since they are trained to defend life and when all else fails...shoot! Did all else fail...no! Nothing was done short of calling the police (not the animal control personnel, which are required to be on the grounds during hours of viewing) and they reacted as they where trained, (by the way, the police are not trained for this type of event) so they did what any reasonable officer would do, they shot the Tiger.

Any one that accepts the responsibility of owning a dangerous animal not only takes the responsibility of ownership but also the responsibility for that animals welfare! And if any one sees it any different they are side stepping responsibility!

And yes, I have raised a large dangerous animal and for fifteen years it was a wonderful companion, but I did so responsibly not only for those around us, but for the animal as well.

Hopefully that will answer your questions.
 

Caille

New member
"I'm curious to know who this diatribe is directed at?"

Seems as if you have already answered this question.

It was directed at me? Why?

You didn't read this post did you, kind of just skimmed over it?

No, I read it a couple of times and then responded to it point by point. What makes you think I didn't read it thoroughly?

Go back and read the thread and I'm sure you can decide who, what, where and when, its not difficult.

I'm sure I can. I was, however, asking you who you thought promoted those views.

"If so, what would you have proposed they should have done differently?"

?? Think??

I'm sure they did. They responded to a call, arrived at the site and found an escaped tiger with three humans vulnerable to further attack. Are you proposing that they should have delayed in their response and given the tiger time to finish the job?

"The police officers that responded had only their regular weapons, not tranquilizer guns. "

Zoo's have tranquilizer guns and a written assessment of what to do in the case of an animal escape, along with personnel that are trained for this event.

And if humans are in imminent danger? Do you suppose their "written assessment" stresses recapturing the animal or protecting the humans?

What do you suppose the officers "written assessment" stresses?

Yes, that is a correct statement as far as the threat involved is concerned, but one that side steps the ultimate question of responsibility before the fact.

You made the claim that killing the tiger was wrong. I'm claiming that, in the given situation, the officers who killed the tiger were acting appropriately.

The decision to have the animal was made, the cages have been built, the plans for the unforeseeable events of animal escape laid out, the control of patrons entering an area of potential danger in place, but yet some fool comes in, does something that creates an incident that ends with death and we kill the only creature that responded exactly as it should?

Which of the systems failed?



1. The decision to have a dangerous animal....no!
2. The building of the cage...yes!
3. The plans or animal escape...no!
4. The equipment for animal capture...no!
5. Patron control...yes!
6. A human acting responsibly and not foolishly...yes!

And yet we kill the Tiger!

Yes, to protect human life, in that given situation once the tiger had escaped. Do you think that was a wrong decision?

Any one that accepts the responsibility of owning a dangerous animal not only takes the responsibility of ownership but also the responsibility for that animals welfare! And if any one sees it any different they are side stepping responsibility!

I agree. The zoo was negligent in allowing the tiger to be placed in an enclosure where it could escape.

As for the rest of your post, it's obvious that your emotions are coloring your reason.
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
It was directed at me? Why?

I don't remember placing your name in my post...just went back to check...I didn't!

"No, I read it a couple of times and then responded to it point by point. What makes you think I didn't read it thoroughly?"

These questions?

"I'm sure I can. I was, however, asking you who you thought promoted those views."

You are a intelligent individual and read very well, a little too quickly I think, but I'm sure....no, I'm not any longer sure that you can discern the answer to that question, but you should be able to since you are participating in this type of forum. Why would you expect others to do your work for you?

"I'm sure they did. They responded to a call, arrived at the site and found an escaped tiger with three humans vulnerable to further attack. Are you proposing that they should have delayed in their response and given the tiger time to finish the job?"

Who do you think was closer and could react faster? Officers responding to a call from outside the zoo or zoo personnel on the grounds?

"And if humans are in imminent danger? Do you suppose their "written assessment" stresses recapturing the animal or protecting the humans?"

Recapturing the animal would also protect the humans in danger.?

"What do you suppose the officers "written assessment" stresses?"

To protect life! That was in my last post as well as the first questions you responded too.

"You made the claim that killing the tiger was wrong. I'm claiming that, in the given situation, the officers who killed the tiger were acting appropriately."

I didn't say the officers responded incorrectly, they responded in the manner they were trained. Are we speaking in different languages here?

"Yes, to protect human life, in that given situation once the tiger had escaped. Do you think that was a wrong decision?"

See answer from the last question above.

"I agree. The zoo was negligent in allowing the tiger to be placed in an enclosure where it could escape."

"As for the rest of your post, it's obvious that your emotions are coloring your reason.
"

Emotions color all of our views and our reasons... the question is, is it overly emotional? Or do you feel we should not be responsible for our actions?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Told you zoo...welcome to Dead Tiger Bigger Victim: the Next Generation.

Who gets to wear the visor? :think:
Certainly number one figures somewhere...
And I'm feeling a little green over the data on hand. :p
 

Caille

New member
Told you zoo...welcome to Dead Tiger Bigger Victim: the Next Generation.

Who gets to wear the visor? :think:
Certainly number one figures somewhere...
And I'm feeling a little green over the data on hand. :p




That reminds me. I was watching PBS last night and they were showing Condoleezza Rice giving testimony about her lack of any functioning memory. I started wondering if she was actually related to Worf or was just trying to look like him to impress Waxman.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
That reminds me. I was watching PBS last night and they were showing Condoleezza Rice giving testimony about her lack of any functioning memory. I started wondering if she was actually related to Worf or was just trying to look like him to impress Waxman.

:think:........:chuckle: Now that you mention it. :thumb:
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
That reminds me. I was watching PBS last night and they were showing Condoleezza Rice giving testimony about her lack of any functioning memory. I started wondering if she was actually related to Worf or was just trying to look like him to impress Waxman.

Lack of any functioning memory?

Our government, gotta love it!

Hey Condi, when was that summit for World Peace?
 

MindOverMatter

New member
I find that ridiculous. If one believes that the tiger had a good reason to attack, then they are a very dangerous person? Please.

And so, are you saying “Please,“ because as a “freedom” loving human, you are of the mind that attacking and killing people for expressing themselves through waving and yelling (freedom of speech) is right?

Sure, if you apply it to humans interacting with humans, it's very dangerous to consider opportunity as a good reason.

Been saying that ZOO:

>>>MindOverMatter Post # 244

>>>MindOverMatter Post #272



But it's absurd not to be able to separate and recognize the differences of an animals intent from a humans intent. Generally speaking, what may be a "reason" for an animal does not apply the same way to a human (vice versa, I suppose). Besides at base (eat, procreate, defend, etc).

And so, what you are saying is that as a “freedom” loving human, you are of the mind that a lower animal that attacks and kills people for expressing themselves through waving and yelling (freedom of speech) is right?



Moral reasoning simply doesn't apply to animals the same way, and any intelligent human would consider that. I would think.

Then how does it apply? If it does not apply the same way, then which way does it apply?

On one paw, you separate animals and humans, and on the other paw, you lump reasoning of animals and humans together as comparable? Patooey.

Where was this at Zoo? Where did MOM say that the reasoning of lower animals and highly developed humans were the same?
 

red77

New member
And so, are you saying “Please,“ because as a “freedom” loving human, you are of the mind that attacking and killing people for expressing themselves through waving and yelling (freedom of speech) is right?



Been saying that ZOO:

>>>MindOverMatter Post # 244

>>>MindOverMatter Post #272




Then how does it apply? If it does not apply the same way, then which way does it apply?



Where was this at Zoo? Where did MOM say that the reasoning of lower animals and highly developed humans were the same?[/QUOTE]

Oh puh - leese, you've been banging on about definitions of anthropomorphism and technicalities of such throughout this thread, what exactly are you trying to achieve?

And just WHY are you persisting with this third person posting rubbish? Is it supposed to be clever? Is it accomplishing anything other than the fact that people would wish you would stop doing it? Look at the rearranged title of this thread MOM, there's not many people from any side of the spectrum that would take issue with it I doubt.....
 
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