Creation vs Evolution

[jamie]

Granted that Adam was vegetarian...

I disagree.

 

[Ben Masada]

It is unfortunate that the important question about the deluge always ends up on the location of Noah's ark. This happened as recently as last fall's 'search for Noah's ark' release. All the chips were on that play. The deluge is an ENORMOUS GEOLOGICAL event by comparison with that one question. To be consumed with the ark's location is like trying to find one painting that was on the Titannic and hinging all your belief about its sinking on the finding of that item.

It will never happen again; I mean another catastrophe of the size of the Flood. Not as long as at least Ten Righteous ones remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)That's what Jesus referred to in John 4:22 when he said: "Salvation comes from the Jews."

 

[Rosenritter]

I disagree.

Follow through this then with me Jamie, and tell me if this remains disagreeable.

Genesis 1:28-29 KJV
(28) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
(29) And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

* The "them" of Genesis 1:28 includes Adam and Eve.
* The "meat" of Genesis 1:29 is has the classic meaning of the word "food" and is defined as including herbs and fruit.
* The "meat" of Genesis 1:29" does not mention the flesh of birds or beasts.
* The context of Genesis 1:29-29 is at the initial creation, before the Flood.

Genesis 9:1-4 KJV
(1) And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
(2) And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
(3) Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
(4) But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


* The format of Genesis 9:1-4 (above) is of similar format to the passage from Genesis 1.
* The dread of man that is pronounced is spoken of as if it were something new.
* The "meat" that Genesis 9:3 speaks of includes both "every moving thing that liveth" and "even as the green herb have I given you."
* The "meat" of "every moving thing" is spoken of as if it is in addition to the previously known "every green herb" of Genesis 1.
* The context of Genesis 9 is after the Flood.


* Adam died approximately 600 years before the new commandment in Genesis 9.
* Assuming that Adam obeyed God's definition of "meat" during his lifetime, Adam was therefore vegetarian, having every green herb and the fruit of every tree as his meat, and "the flesh of every moving thing" should not have entered into his imagination.

Did I miss something, or make a wild leap in there somehow?

 

[Rosenritter]

It will never happen again; I mean another catastrophe of the size of the Flood. Not as long as at least Ten Righteous ones remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)That's what Jesus referred to in John 4:22 when he said: "Salvation comes from the Jews."

You are a source of new ideas, that's for sure. "Ten Righteous Ones?" How is that possibly drawn from that passage of Jeremiah 31:35-37? But when Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews" He meant Him, Himself. The savior of all, the Light unto the Gentiles, was of the Jews.

Acts 13:45-48 KJV
(45) But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
(46) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
(47) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
(48) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I am inclined to think that the apostles knew the Old Testament a bit better than you.

Isaiah 49:6 KJV
(6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 42:6-8 KJV
(6) I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
(7) To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
(8) I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Luke 4:17-21 KJV
(17) And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
(20) And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
(21) And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 

[Ben Masada]

You are a source of new ideas, that's for sure. "Ten Righteous Ones?" How is that possibly drawn from that passage of Jeremiah 31:35-37? But when Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews" He meant Him, Himself. The savior of all, the Light unto the Gentiles,was of the Jews.

By ten righteous I was referring to the Minyan of ten Jews which was taken from Genesis 18:32 and, with regards to what Jesus said in John 4:22, if he had meant
himself, I am sure he would have said "from one among the Jews" and not from the Jews, period.

Acts 13:45-48 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

Not true that the other Jews were envious of Jesus; they would rather be happy to see a Jew who observed the Law down to the letter being so successful.(Mat. 5:17-19) Don't forget that the gospels were not written by Jews but by Hellenist former disciples of Paul.

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Now,show me when Paul ever turned to the Gentiles. The opposite was rather true that he never left the Jews in peace since his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome.(Acts 9:1,2; 28:17)

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

If you are referring to Jesus, he would never send his disciples to the Gentiles.The opposite was rather true if you read Mat. 10:5,6. "Not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles."

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

There is nothing eternal about man but death. So, not true.

Luke 4:17-21 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

If we are to believe Mat. 10:5,6,
nothing of the above was true.

I am inclined to think that the apostles knew the Old Testament a bit better than you.

But none of them wrote a single page of the NT. A Jew could not write against his own Faith.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

If that was a reference to Jesus, why would he forbid his disciples to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles? (Mat. 10:5,6) Makes not sense.

Isaiah 42:6-8 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Same as above.

 

[jamie]

Follow through this then with me Jamie, and tell me if this remains disagreeable.

My experience has been that God is very consistent. In other words, God doesn't give an instruction one day and then later countermand it. For example Abel offered God a blood offering but Cain offered a bloodless offering.

What did they do with the meat?

In Genesis 1:30 it is clear the animals were herbivores but there is no indication that humans were not omnivores.

It was agreed before humans were created there would be a Lamb of God and the Passover foreshadowed God's Lamb.

In Genesis 4:20 We read that Jabal was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. Obviously it was intended from the beginning that humans would have livestock.

Livestock don't make good pets but they sure do make good eats. "What's for dinner?"

Noah knew when he boarded the animals that some were for food and some were not.

 

[6days]

Abel offered God a blood offering but Cain offered a bloodless offering.
What did they do with the meat?

Scripture does not say.

In Genesis 1:30 it is clear the animals were herbivores but there is no indication that humans were not omnivores.

It tells us Adam was a vegetarian in verse 29 "Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.*"

In Genesis 4:20 We read that Jabal was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. Obviously it was intended from the beginning that humans would have livestock.

"Obvious from the beginning"?? *Not so... God had prepared a garden for Adam and commanded him to be a vegetarian. Eating meat and killing of animals was something that happened after sin entered the world.*
BTW... the first animals sacrificed was by the Lord to clothe Adam and Eve. Perhaps that was a foreshadowing of Hm sacrificing His Son for our sins

 

[jamie]

It tells us Adam was a vegetarian in verse 29 "Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.*"

God had already given humans authority over all creatures.

Adam was given instructions on what plants and fruit to eat.

Not everything Adam and Christ discussed is recorded.

 

[6days]

God had already given humans authority over all creatures.
Adam was given instructions on what plants and fruit to eat.

I'm not sure why you want Adam eating animals? It opens the door to a compromised Gospel. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. *You seem to believe that blood was being shed even before sin? (Are you trying to add evolutionary ideas into scripture?) *

Jamie.... scripture is pretty clear on this matter. *
BEFORE SIN. Gen. 1:29
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.*
AFTER SIN (And after the flood) Gen. 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

 

[Jonahdog]

I cannot discern your meaning, I think maybe your thought got lost in the grammar somewhere.

Throughout this discussion of whether or not plants are living creatures, what has a soul, what is a soul, etc. you and others fall back on Genesis. That requires a belief in at least the Old Testament God. Does not work anymore for me. Irrational and silly belief which then requires its believers to live their lives based on an irrational and silly belief or risk the wrath of that particular deity.

 

[patrick jane]

Throughout this discussion of whether or not plants are living creatures, what has a soul, what is a soul, etc. you and others fall back on Genesis. That requires a belief in at least the Old Testament God. Does not work anymore for me. Irrational and silly belief which then requires its believers to live their lives based on an irrational and silly belief or risk the wrath of that particular deity.

You are saved Jonahdog, by faith in Christ. Read Romans thru Philemon in the New Testament, read the scriptures in my signature, that's the new deal. If you believe 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV - you ared saved and sealed Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV -

 

[Jonahdog]

You are saved Jonahdog, by faith in Christ. Read Romans thru Philemon in the New Testament, read the scriptures in my signature, that's the new deal. If you believe 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV - you ared saved and sealed Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV -

Patrick, no real need to discuss this. I no longer believe in the existence of any deity or in particular the accuracy of your Holy Book. So you might as well tell me to read the Wall Street Journal for my salvation.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

The Bible speaks of a perfect time with these words "In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all." Is. 11:6.

Do you think God created lions to eat a baby zebra while the mom stands by wailing? Do you think God would call that "very good"?

Physical death was part of the curse to humans and vertebrates (nepesh chayyah 'living creatures')

Take a look at the parallel passage to that verse in Isaiah 65:20-25. There you read about the wolf and the lamb, but you also read "he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth..."

So, if this is really referring to perfect time after Jesus returns, why are people still dying?

In my opinion, the wolf and lamb wording is symbolic language to describe Jesus' Kingdom.

Do you think a future heaven / earth scenario will include animals?

I don't think a future heaven / earth scenario will require metabolism and the intake of nutrients.

God can call a world of dying zebra babies very good (not perfect) because He established an intricate ecological system where nutrients would be passed among all life from the smallest to the largest. Think of the alternative to a world without predators / prey. The herbivores would quickly devour all plant life without the checks and balances of carnivores. The smallest, fastest reproducing animals would quickly outnumber the larger animals and out-compete them for resources. If animals didn't kill one another, they would eventually be killed from starvation.

 

[Rosenritter]

Throughout this discussion of whether or not plants are living creatures, what has a soul, what is a soul, etc. you and others fall back on Genesis. That requires a belief in at least the Old Testament God. Does not work anymore for me. Irrational and silly belief which then requires its believers to live their lives based on an irrational and silly belief or risk the wrath of that particular deity.

Any mathematical proof requires certain assumptions to be in place for the purpose of analyzing the proof. Any scientific theory starts with observations, then a hypothesis, and then that hypothesis is tested. Some people here claim to be "scientific" but their heart is anything but scientific, they are really just fanatics of the humanist religion. A scientist would understand accepting a hypothesis for the sake of testing.

If you do not have faith in Genesis, then treat Genesis as a hypothesis. Be willing to consider all valid hypothesis instead of rejecting some angles of investigation because you're scared of the possible results. When you cannot prove assumptions, the method is to proceed on them for the purpose of revealing a possible contradiction.

 

[Rosenritter]

Take a look at the parallel passage to that verse in Isaiah 65:20-25. There you read about the wolf and the lamb, but you also read "he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth..."

So, if this is really referring to perfect time after Jesus returns, why are people still dying?

In my opinion, the wolf and lamb wording is symbolic language to describe Jesus' Kingdom.

Do you think a future heaven / earth scenario will include animals?

I don't think a future heaven / earth scenario will require metabolism and the intake of nutrients.

God can call a world of dying zebra babies very good (not perfect) because He established an intricate ecological system where nutrients would be passed among all life from the smallest to the largest. Think of the alternative to a world without predators / prey. The herbivores would quickly devour all plant life without the checks and balances of carnivores. The smallest, fastest reproducing animals would quickly outnumber the larger animals and out-compete them for resources. If animals didn't kill one another, they would eventually be killed from starvation.

The child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner, being a hundred years old, shall be accursed. That's the gist of it, isn't it?

Isaiah 65:20 KJV
(20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

You might also ask, why are there children? Those who are made immortal and incorruptible neither marry nor give in marriage. So either these children are born during God's rule on earth, or they were raised to life with the rest of the dead at the judgment. Why do they die? Because men aren't created immortal. It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I suppose that a hundred years would be a full enough lifespan for a child to have lived before being judged, wouldn't you?

 

[Jonahdog]

Any mathematical proof requires certain assumptions to be in place for the purpose of analyzing the proof. Any scientific theory starts with observations, then a hypothesis, and then that hypothesis is tested. Some people here claim to be "scientific" but their heart is anything but scientific, they are really just fanatics of the humanist religion. A scientist would understand accepting a hypothesis for the sake of testing.

If you do not have faith in Genesis, then treat Genesis as a hypothesis. Be willing to consider all valid hypothesis instead of rejecting some angles of investigation because you're scared of the possible results. When you cannot prove assumptions, the method is to proceed on them for the purpose of revealing a possible contradiction.

No thanks. I am not afraid of the possible results. Looked at it all already. I'm not sure I would be looking for contradictions provided by the real world while betting on an accurate Genesis.

 

[jamie]

I'm not sure why you want Adam eating animals?

For protein. Some animals make really good food.

Why do you want Adam to not eat animals?

 

[6days]

Why do you want Adam to not eat animals?

Its not what I want... Its what God commanded in Genesis 1. In Genesis 9 He tells man that previously the diet was vegetarian, but now I give the OK to eat meat.

 

[jamie]

Its not what I want... Its what God commanded in Genesis 1.

There is nothing in Genesis 1 about not eating meat.

You are simply adding to scripture.

 

[patrick jane]

There is nothing in Genesis 1 about not eating meat.

You are simply adding to scripture.

No meat